# Freedom of religion in Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995 "2013-02-11T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/61 "2013-02-12T19:32:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I have no doubt that some Israelis are contemptuous and dismissive toward other Jews, even going so far as to play the not-a-real-Jew card. My question is whether that attitude is common among “Israelis as a whole.” A couple other people saying the same thing won’t cut it; what would cut it is some sort of polling data. Who said “not-a-real-Jew”? Reform Jews are (mostly) Jews. The religion they are playing at is not real Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/62 "2013-02-12T19:33:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “The temple I don’t go to is the correct one!” > 😉 Kinda. “My shul, the one I never go to, is an orthodox one.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/63 "2013-02-12T19:39:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Who said “not-a-real-Jew”? Reform Jews are (mostly) Jews. The religion they are playing at is not real Judaism. That’s equivocation. You know as well as I do that “Jew” has multiple meanings, and in this context we’re clearly discussing its meaning, “adherent to the religion of Judaism.” In any event, do you or do you not have actual data to support your personal experiences? I don’t deny such data exist; but in a cursory search I’ve been unable to find any such data, and the events on the ground can equally be explained by an ultra-Orthodox control of the religious power structure in Israel, the sort that, according to some of my reading, means that marriages performed by Reform rabbis are not recognized by the state as legally valid. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/64 "2013-02-12T19:40:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Those women wearing tallit at the wall were a deliberate provocation, and they knew that it was a deliberate provocation. Deliberate provocation was the primary purpose of them showing up there. I don’t find this part convincing at all; the history of civil rights in America is filled with “deliberately provocative” acts. Rosa Parks refusing to stand was interpreted by many as provocative, but it was still (obviously) the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/65 "2013-02-12T19:43:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s equivocation. You know as well as I do that “Jew” has multiple meanings, and in this context we’re clearly discussing its meaning, “adherent to the religion of Judaism.” Maybe to you “Jew” has multiple meanings. To Judaism, it has one. > [@](#): > > In any event, do you or do you not have actual data to support your personal experiences? I don’t deny such data exist; but in a cursory search I’ve been unable to find any such data, and the events on the ground can equally be explained by an ultra-Orthodox control of the religious power structure in Israel, the sort that, according to some of my reading, means that marriages performed by Reform rabbis are not recognized by the state as legally valid. There is no data because no one bothers to gather it. Reform religion has never (thank God) taken root in Israel and what congregations exist consist mainly of the Anglo immigrants. Their children born in Israel usually don’t follow in their parents’ footsteps. It is a foreign concept that Anglo immigrants keep trying to inject into Israel, and Israelis keep rejecting. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/66 "2013-02-12T19:45:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t find this part convincing at all; the history of civil rights in America is filled with “deliberately provocative” acts. How is that relevant to my post? I was responding to someone who claimed that the Reform women actions were not “deliberately provocative”. If you think they were deliberately provocative, I agree. Men and women are separated at the Wall. There is a men’s section and a women’s section, and they are separated from each other. Reform religion adherents pray together, men and women. Should they try to force that at the Wall as well? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/67 "2013-02-12T19:47:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe to you “Jew” has multiple meanings. To Judaism, it has one. ??? This goes against everything I’ve heard other Jews talk about. Unless you’re going no true Scotsman on me, I’m having even greater time figuring out what you mean. > [@](#): > > There is no data because no one bothers to gather it. Reform religion has never (thank God) taken root in Israel and what congregations exist consist mainly of the Anglo immigrants. Their children born in Israel usually don’t follow in their parents’ footsteps. It is a foreign concept that Anglo immigrants keep trying to inject into Israel, and Israelis keep rejecting. And this gets to the heart of it: religious bigotry. Who needs facts and data when you can dismiss differing religious beliefs as a bunch of outsiders and foreigners? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/68 "2013-02-12T19:51:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > ??? This goes against everything I’ve heard other Jews talk about. Unless you’re going no true Scotsman on me, I’m having even greater time figuring out what you mean. A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or converted according to Halacha. Following Judaism is not a requirement. So yes, a Reform Jew is a Jew if he falls under one of the above criteria, whether he follows Judaism or not. > [@](#): > > And this gets to the heart of it: religious bigotry. Who needs facts and data when you can dismiss differing religious beliefs as a bunch of outsiders and foreigners? Anglo immigrants are not “foreigners”. They are Israelis. But the Reform religion they bring with them is foreign to Israel, and foreign to other Israelis, even the Anglo immigrants’ children that are born in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/69 "2013-02-12T19:52:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Men and women are separated at the Wall. There is a men’s section and a women’s section, and they are separated from each other. Reform religion adherents pray together, men and women. Should they try to force that at the Wall as well? No, of course not. In my opinion, forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirements is wrong in all cases. Both groups should be allowed to pray as they see fit. How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women pray at what they consider to be the holiest part of the Wall? How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women wear what they consider necessary for their prayer? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/70 "2013-02-12T19:56:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, of course not. In my opinion, forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirements is wrong in all cases. Both groups should be allowed to pray as they see fit. How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women pray at what they consider to be the holiest part of the Wall? No one prevents Reform Jewish women praying at the Wall. > [@](#): > > How does it harm the Orthodox Jews if Reform Jewish women wear what they consider necessary for their prayer? It harms them in the same way that it would harm them if they (and Reform do consider egalitarianism to be a basic requirement) insisted on praying on the men’s side. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/71 "2013-02-12T19:57:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is no data because no one bothers to gather it. Reform religion has never (thank God) taken root in Israel and what congregations exist consist mainly of the Anglo immigrants. Their children born in Israel usually don’t follow in their parents’ footsteps. It is a foreign concept that Anglo immigrants keep trying to inject into Israel, and Israelis keep rejecting. It’s unsourced, but the Israel Movement For Progressive Judaism claims [here](http://www.reform.org.il/Eng/Communities/Communities.asp) that: > [@](#): > > 80% of Israeli Jews consider themselves secular. > > In a recent survey, 34% of Israeli Jews said that the Progressive movement is the Jewish movement they most identify with. (23% stated that they identify most with Orthodox Judaism). Progressive Judaism includes Liberal, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism, according to [this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Judaism) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/72 "2013-02-12T19:59:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one prevents Reform Jewish women praying at the Wall. It’s my understanding that the “women’s side” of the Wall is considered less holy, and a less desirable spot for prayer (in addition to being an archaeological site). Why can’t the women pray where they want? > [@](#): > > It harms them in the same way that it would harm them if they (and Reform do consider egalitarianism to be a basic requirement) insisted on praying on the men’s side. This sounds like zero harm to me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/73 "2013-02-12T19:59:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [QUOTE=Terr] > Men and women are separated at the Wall. There is a men’s section and a women’s section, and they are separated from each other. Reform religion adherents pray together, men and women. Should they try to force that at the Wall as well? No, of course not. In my opinion, forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirements is wrong in all cases. [/QUOTE] But that wouldn’t be “forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirement”. They would just be quietly praying in men’s section. After all, as some poster put it above: “You can’t be disrupted by quiet prayer unless you allow yourself to be disrupted. Or are a power-hungry, selfish religious fanatic.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/74 "2013-02-12T20:01:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s unsourced, but the Israel Movement For Progressive Judaism claims [here](http://www.reform.org.il/Eng/Communities/Communities.asp) that: Yup. Unsourced. I am surprised they didn’t claim all 80%. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/75 "2013-02-12T20:02:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But that wouldn’t be “forcing others to obey your own religion’s requirement”. They would just be quietly praying in men’s section. After all, as some poster put it above: “You can’t be disrupted by quiet prayer unless you allow yourself to be disrupted. Or are a power-hungry, selfish religious fanatic.” Exactly. Let them pray quietly where they wish, wearing what they wish. Do not prevent anyone from praying at any part of the Wall they wish in a non-disruptive manner. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/76 "2013-02-12T20:05:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Exactly. Let them pray quietly where they wish, wearing what they wish. Do not prevent anyone from praying at any part of the Wall they wish in a non-disruptive manner. Of course. And to hell with the vast majority of the people who come to the Wall who won’t be able to come and pray there if there will be a mixing of men and women there. And didn’t you just say that men and women should stay separated at the Wall in your previous post? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/77 "2013-02-12T20:08:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yup. Unsourced. I am surprised they didn’t claim all 80%. Self-nitpick: it seems that Progressive Judaism in Israel refers to [Reform Judaism specifically.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Judaism_(Israel)) That article states: > [@](#): > > Despite a great investment of resources the Reform movement remains tiny in Israel. It has failed to attract many Israelis and its prime constituency is English speaking immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/78 "2013-02-12T20:17:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. And to hell with the vast majority of the people who come to the Wall who won’t be able to come and pray there if there will be a mixing of men and women there. > And didn’t you just say that men and women should stay separated at the Wall in your previous post? I don’t think I said that. I meant that orthodox men and women should not be forced to pray together. I think it’s been proposed that certain times of day be allocated to mixed or men only prayer, might that satisfy the religious requirements of both sided? ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/79 "2013-02-12T20:24:18Z")
Yes,true…whether one feels its right or wrong ,their actions were delibaretly provocative. Ive been many times to both the orthodox shul, a conservative temple and an ultra liberal reform synagogue. And ive never seen women wearing tallit ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/80 "2013-02-12T20:40:28Z")
There is nothing preventing hoffman and that small group from praying at the Wall. By insisting on prayinvg with the men they will be preventing the Jews from following their religion,…it would essentially take away the religious rights of the majority to cater to a few. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=5)