# Freedom of religion in Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995 "2013-02-11T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/81 "2013-02-12T21:01:16Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > There is nothing preventing hoffman and that small group from praying at the Wall. By insisting on prayinvg with the men they will be preventing the Jews from following their religion,..it would essentially take away the religious rights of the majority to cater to a few. They want to pray at what they consider the holiest part of the Wall. Right now, their rights are denied in favor of the rights of the orthodox. Perhaps if different times of day were allocated to mixed and segregated prayer, both groups’ rights could be satisfied. To me, it seems no different then if a certain sect’s belief meant that (for example) Ethiopian Jews could not pray at a certain holy location- they had to pray at a segregated area. Perhaps Americans like me have a knee-jerk negative reaction to anything that smells like “separate but equal”. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/82 "2013-02-12T21:33:01Z")
1. Ane Hoffman tried to pray at the **women** part. What the Jewish inquisition did not like was that she and her group used a prayer shawl. 2. Despite what Terr says, non-orthodox Judaism (which contains many flavors, including Conservative Judaism) is very much trending in Israel. For instance, my children have had a reform bar-mitzva and bat-mitzva, although we’re basically secular. And we do not originate in the US, or any other English speaking country. 3. The Ultra-Orthodox establishment is **hated** , and I don’t use this word lightly, by the majority, or even great majority of Israeli Jews. The Zionist-Orthodox that constitute the other branch of orthodoxy are in a crisis. I should remind Terr, claiming the “novelty” of the Reform movement, that the Zionist-Orthodox movement is also “new”, less than 150 years old. And roughly 1/3 of their children veer towards extremist orthodoxy, and 1/3 towards secularism. In addition, a significant portion of the Zionist-Orthodox is heavily Messianic and invested in the West bank (or Judea and Samaria as they are called) ultra-nationalism. By the way, they are dismissed by the Ultra-Orthodox as “kippa srucha” that means “Stinking Kippa” and is a world play from “Kippa Sruga” - knitted kippa. 4. Women praying at the wall is maybe the least of the religious discrimination and intolerance in Israel. Did anyone know that around half a million people cannot legally marry in Israel and have to go to Cyprus or elsewhere ? This is because they are not Jews according to the Halacha laws as interpreted by the orthodox (i.e. Jewish father, Christian mother or converted to Judaism not by the “right” rabbi, or just cannot prove Judaism well enough) **and there is no possibility of civil marriage**. Terr’s claim on a monopoly of knowledge of “what is Judaism” is just a claim. Jews in the centers of Jewish learning in Spain 500 years ago or even the Rambam would not recognize Judaism as practiced and lived by the ultra-Orthodox. They were vastly more open and moderate. Source - I am Israeli - I know how it is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/83 "2013-02-12T21:46:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or converted according to Halacha. Following Judaism is not a requirement. So yes, a Reform Jew is a Jew if he falls under one of the above criteria, whether he follows Judaism or not. Help me out here. Bob, a Lutheran, converts to Reform Judaism at a Reform synagogue in Poughkeepsie. Despite converting to something that you do not consider to be Judaism, is he a Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/84 "2013-02-12T21:55:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They want to pray at what they consider the holiest part of the Wall. Right now, their rights are denied in favor of the rights of the orthodox. They can pray at the Wall any time they like. No rights denied. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/85 "2013-02-12T21:56:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They can pray at the Wall any time they like. No rights denied. But they can only pray at certain parts of the Wall, and if I understand it correctly, they can’t wear what they like. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/86 "2013-02-12T22:00:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Help me out here. Bob, a Lutheran, converts to Reform Judaism at a Reform synagogue in Poughkeepsie. Despite converting to something that you do not consider to be Judaism, is he a Jew? Some Jews would dispute that. Neither he nor I, who converted with a Conservative Bet Din (sp), would have “the right of return” to Israel as Jews. Someone who converted Orthodox would. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/87 "2013-02-12T22:03:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Help me out here. Bob, a Lutheran, converts to Reform Judaism at a Reform synagogue in Poughkeepsie. Despite converting to something that you do not consider to be Judaism, is he a Jew? No. Same thing, if I decide I am going to create another form of Judiaism, call it “Neoclassical” Judaism, and the conversion procedure consists of kicking someone in the butt. If I kick Bob, a Lutheran, in the butt, he still does not become a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/88 "2013-02-12T22:05:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But they can only pray at certain parts of the Wall, and if I understand it correctly, they can’t wear what they like. They can pray at the woman’s side of the wall, and no, they cannot “wear what they like”. For example, bathing suits are a no-no. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/89 "2013-02-12T22:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > But they can only pray at certain parts of the Wall, and if I understand it correctly, they can’t wear what they like. Right. > [@](#): > > From The Jewish Virtual Library > > Since the Mishnah uses the expression “exemption,” many women voluntarily choose to perform time-bounded mitzvot. However, the Orthodox community has denied women the mitzvot of wearing tallit and tefillin, no matter whether they voluntarily choose to perform the mitzvot. Scholars also debate whether a woman is permitted to recite the suitable blessing that adjoins a mitzvah that she is electing to perform. > … > However, in egalitarian Conservative and Reform synagogues, women can read from the Torah and lead services, consequently releasing men of their obligations. In virtually all Conservative and Reform services women can also execute the mitzvah of being counted in a minyan, unlike in Orthodox congregations. In 1973, the Conservative movement decreed that the omission of women from the prayer service was discriminatory. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/90 "2013-02-12T22:09:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Who said “not-a-real-Jew”? > [@Terr](#): > > No. Same thing, if I decide I am going to create another form of Judiaism, call it “Neoclassical” Judaism, and the conversion procedure consists of kicking someone in the butt. If I kick Bob, a Lutheran, in the butt, he still does not become a Jew. Who said “not a real Jew”? You did, that’s who. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/91 "2013-02-12T22:11:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > They can pray at the woman’s side of the wall, and no, they cannot “wear what they like”. For example, bathing suits are a no-no. Apparently, so is certain religious garb. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/92 "2013-02-12T22:15:51Z")
From what I’ve read, even Bibi has allegedly asked the authorities to come up with a way to solve the problem posed by the Orthodox stranglehold over the wall. So it isn’t as if the issue does not resonate with “the authorities”. The problem here is that the Holy sites of Jerusalem are a political and social tinderbox and any messing about on some sect’s “turf” is often the signal for rioting or worse. Hence, the first instinct of the Israeli authorities is to support the status quo however unjust it may be to someone - that includes removing “civil disobeyers” even though the cause they fight for may very well be justified. This isn’t particularly an issue confined to Jews BTW - Muslims and Christians too have their religious status quo upheld by the authoritise (the example of the Dome of the Rock is a case in point - so is the multiple sects of Christians “owning” bits of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre). While this situation no doubt sucks in cases like this, if the Israelis _didn’t_ take that attitude Jerusalem would soon be overrun by people claiming the right to “occupy” holy sites traditionally accorded to others - for example, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre used to regularly witness riots by groups of monks attempting to claim more “turf”, and there are many Jewish groups who would like nothing better than to oust the Muslims from the Temple Mount (it is, after all, formerly the site of the Temple, and so holy ground for Jews). All of which, particularly the latter, has the potential for creating much violence in a city where religion is taken very seriously indeed. While it is easy for us North Americans to say, in effect, “well, people should all be allowed to exercise their religious freedom as they see fit and if the religious types get upset about that, too bad”, well, _we_ don’t have to live there and _we_ aren’t likely to be blamed by the entire world if our well-intentioned policies create rioting, murder, and bloody suppression. 😉 How quickly people forget that the “second intafadah” was (allegedly by some) triggered by … a Jew asserting the right of Jews to step foot on the Temple Mount. > **[Second Intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada)** > > 29 September 2000 – 1 January 2005: > 29 September 2000 – 1 January 2005: > [@](#): > > This conflict, referred to by the Palestinians as the “Al-Aqsa Intifada,” combined riots of the civilian population with military conflict between the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the Palestinian civilians.[30] On the occasion of Ariel Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount, also known as Al-Haram Al-Sharif, and an area sacred to both Jews and Muslims,[31][32] a riot broke out among Palestinians at the site, resulting in a conflict between Israeli forces and the protesting crowd. Still others believe it started a day later on Friday September 29, a day of prayers, when an Israeli police and military presence was introduced and there were major clashes and deaths.[33][34][35] The conflict began on September 28, 2000 when Ariel Sharon, a Likud party candidate for Israeli Prime Minister, entered the Temple Mount accompanied by over 1,000 security guards.[36] He stated on that day, “the Temple Mount is in our hands and will remain in our hands. It is the holiest site in Judaism and it is the right of every Jew to visit the Temple Mount”.[37] Palestinians have since claimed his act was a provocation and see it as the beginning of the Second Intifada,[38] while others have claimed that Yasser Arafat had pre-planned the uprising.[17] Around 4000 people died as a result. While Sharon may have been “in the right” to visit the Temple Mount, it was exceedingly unwise of him to assert that right in the context. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/93 "2013-02-12T22:15:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Who said “not a real Jew”? You did, that’s who. Wrong. I didn’t say Reform Jews are not real Jews. Reform converts aren’t, that’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/94 "2013-02-12T22:18:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Some Jews would dispute that. > Neither he nor I, who converted with a Conservative Bet Din (sp), would have “the right of return” to Israel as Jews. Someone who converted Orthodox would. Are you sure ? Law of return is not identical to orthodox Jewisness; it is a **secular** law, made by the parliament. For instance one is entitled to Israeli citizenship even if he/she had only one Jewish grandfather. I’m almost sure that reform or conservative conversions would be OK. You wouldn’t be able to marry as a Jew though, since marriage/divorce law can be only religious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/95 "2013-02-12T22:22:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. I didn’t say Reform Jews are not real Jews. Reform converts aren’t, that’s correct. Why is your definition any more valid then the definition of the many people who would claim to be Jews despite your denial? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/96 "2013-02-12T22:26:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why is your definition any more valid then the definition of the many people who would claim to be Jews despite your denial? I told you, I am the head of the branch of Judaism called “Neoclassical” Judaism (just because I like that name). The only requirement to convert to it is to accept a kick in the ass from me. I kick you in the ass, you’re a Jew. Are other Jews required to accept my converts as Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/97 "2013-02-12T22:26:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. I didn’t say Reform Jews are not real Jews. Reform converts aren’t, that’s correct. “No true Jew is a convert to Reform Judaism from another religion!” “Bob is a convert to Reform Judaism from another religion.” “Then Bob is no true Jew!” Yep. You’re engaging in semantic sophistry in support of religious bigotry. A better example of the No True Scotsman fallacy I’ve yet to come across. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/98 "2013-02-12T22:28:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. I didn’t say Reform Jews are not real Jews. Reform converts aren’t, that’s correct. And neither many orthodox converts, if the converting Rabbi is not “approved” by the Great Rabbinical Court. As you may remember, they even **retroactively** canceled conversions made by Rabbi Druckman. Who is very Orthodox. Don’t worry, Terr. We will also fight for you when you’ll be declared a non-jew because you won’t be able to prove that your grand-grand-grand…-grandmother was Jewish. We are lucky to have a High Court of Justice that sorts these things out, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/99 "2013-02-12T22:35:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Beside the point. From the OP’s article: > > This was not a Waqf action. This was an action by the Israeli government: arrest by Israeli police in accordance with regulations put forth by the Israeli government. These regulations favor one Jewish group’s worship at this place at the expense of another group of Jewish worshipers. I think there’s been some confusion. What Steronz and I were discussing was the Al Aqsa Mosque, not the Wailing Wall. Specifically, our discussion began because Smapti in post 21 claimed that he thought Jews should be able to enter the Al Aqsa Mosque and pray there when they wanted. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15996119&postcount=21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15996119&postcount=21) That’s where I entered the conversation. We weren’t discussing the question of whether or not Jewish women should be allowed to pray at the men’s section of the Wailing Wall or anything like that. It’s worth noting that there is a long and tortured history between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Muslims regarding the Al Aqsa Mosque. Jewish terrorist groups have actually hatched plans to blow it up in a mad quest to “rebuild the third temple”, which they believe the Al Aqsa Mosque lies on it. Various other religious groups have made a point of claiming they were going to place the cornerstone by the Mosque symbolizing the rebuilding of the Third Temple(which of course would mean the destruction of the third holiest site in Islam. Such behavior has provoked, as intended, riots and dozens killed in the early 90s and eventually similar actions by Ariel Sharon may or may not have provoked another intifada\*. Obviously, a group of Ultra Orthodox Jews entering the Al Aqsa Mosque to pray there or right beside it would be seen as an extremely provocative act and would be seen as an attempt to symbolically claim ownership the site and belief in it’s destruction and replacement with the Third Temple. Also, despite what Steronz is claiming that, the Mosque is owned(or at least as owned as it can be in the socialist state of Israel) by the Waqf. The Waqf do not control the Western Wall, though they obviously collaborate with the Jewish religious authorities to make sure that everyone can get to their appropriate religious places without stepping on each others toes. Access to the Western Wall, I believe is controlled by a combination of the Israeli government and the official ruling Jewish religious body of Israel. I should have realized the confusion and clarified the mini-hijack going one when you first responded in post 36. > [@](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** > The Western Wall, as near as I can tell, is a public site used for public prayers. I should have recognized the confusion and made it clear we were discussing the Mosque since obviously the Waqf has no control over the Wailing Wall. \*Not being coy, it’s just that there’s tremendous amount of evidence the Al Aqsa Intifada was going to happen anyway, just it would have had a different spark. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/100 "2013-02-12T22:40:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think there’s been some confusion. > > What Steronz and I were discussing was the Al Aqsa Mosque, not the Wailing Wall. Ah, I see. I thought that was just one of the analogies, and I skipped over it because the Lakota one was easier to address; I didn’t much follow your remaining conversation on the subject. My apologies for getting turned around with what you were saying re: Waqf. That doesn’t change, however, my objections to your analogy re: the Lakota, or much else of what followed from that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=6)