# Freedom of religion in Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995 "2013-02-11T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/101 "2013-02-12T22:40:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Some Jews would dispute that. > Neither he nor I, who converted with a Conservative Bet Din (sp), would have “the right of return” to Israel as Jews. Someone who converted Orthodox would. I thought the government of Israel did allow those who’d converted to Reform and Conservative Judaism the “right of return” though, AFAIK, Reform and Conservative Rabbis in Israel aren’t considered Jews for the purpose of performing marriages. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/102 "2013-02-12T22:40:14Z")
But hey, guys, we won’t solve these here. Governments have fallen in Israel over these issues. The “who is a Jew” question is in heated dispute in Israel since its inception. And the Orthodoxy/nonOrthodoxy/Zionism/Secularism, etc are heavy questions even long before the State of Israel. People would’t talk to one another and families would spit sometimes because of these quarrels. Does one think that Orthodox Jews meeting with Ahmadinejad to profess their opposition to Zionism and Israel are crackpots ? Believe me, they have firm theological arguments in place. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/103 "2013-02-12T22:52:32Z")
Heres another.interesting question…hypothetical…susies birthmom is Jewish but she is adopted into a Catholic family. Is she Jewish or Catholic? According to Jewish law she is 100% a Jew, with right of return and all that ’ Conversely if the birthmom is not Jewish but the adoptive mother is, susie would not be a Jew, bc it all goez to the mothers bloodline. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/104 "2013-02-12T22:53:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s worth noting that there is a long and tortured history between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Muslims regarding the Al Aqsa Mosque. Jewish terrorist groups have actually hatched plans to blow it up in a mad quest to “rebuild the third temple”, which they believe the Al Aqsa Mosque lies on it. Various other religious groups have made a point of claiming they were going to place the cornerstone by the Mosque symbolizing the rebuilding of the Third Temple(which of course would mean the destruction of the third holiest site in Islam. You’re right, but I will confuse you even more. There are 2 flavors of Ultra-Orthodox - the Zionist and the not-Zionist or anti-Zionist. What you mentioned above are the Zionist Ultra-Orthodox. They see the land of Israel as a the pinnacle of their faith and constitute the arrowhead of the West Bank settlers. They are Messianic and somewhat similar in the psychological makeup with the American Evangelists. The other flavor, the non-Zionists or even anti-Zionist will not go beyond the Wailing Wall to the Temple Mount (where the mosques are located) since they claim it is a ground too holy, even to step on, until the Messiah comes. They are much more numerous than the first type and they see their Messianism as Apostasy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/105 "2013-02-12T22:55:25Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Heres another.interesting question…hypothetical…susies birthmom is Jewish but she is adopted into a Catholic family. Is she Jewish or Catholic? According to Jewish law she is 100% a Jew, with right of return and all that ’ Conversely if the birthmom is not Jewish but the adoptive mother is, susie would npt be a Jew, bc it all goez to the mothers bloodline. Well, according to the government of Israel, if her mother was Jewish and she claims she’d Jewish, unless he actively practices a religion other than Judaism, she’s Jewish. Now, personally, if it was up to me, anyone who honestly considers oneself to be a Jew/Christian/Muslim, would be considered as such. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/106 "2013-02-12T23:02:17Z")
We’ve lost **iiandyiiii**. I think he just ran away in despair. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/107 "2013-02-12T23:03:55Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > We’ve lost **iiandyiiii**. I think he just ran away in despair. I’m still here 🙂 At first I thought I might be missing something. I don’t think I am, except perhaps I underestimated rabid violent passion of various religious groups in the region. It sounds like the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against the women because, basically, they’d make less of a fuss in defeat. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/108 "2013-02-12T23:05:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I told you, I am the head of the branch of Judaism called “Neoclassical” Judaism (just because I like that name). The only requirement to convert to it is to accept a kick in the ass from me. I kick you in the ass, you’re a Jew. Are other Jews required to accept my converts as Jewish? It seems like this argument could go both ways… perhaps that’s why it sounds so silly. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/109 "2013-02-12T23:10:29Z")
Its determined by maternal bloodline…so technically since an adoptive mom has no bloodline to her adopted kid, the child is jewish if the birthmother is. But in a practical sense they wouldnt know that your adoptive mother is not your birthmother so it wouldnt prevent right of return. But technically goes to maternal bloodline ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/110 "2013-02-12T23:11:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m still here 🙂 > > At first I thought I might be missing something. I don’t think I am, except perhaps I underestimated rabid violent passion of various religious groups in the region. It sounds like the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against the women because, basically, they’d make less of a fuss in defeat. In essence yes. Another way of putting the same point is that the legal authorities are simply disposed to support the religious _status quo_ (however unjust to some) for fear that any changes would cause rioting or worse. Personally, on this point I’d cut them some slack, even though I agree with the women’s group that the stranglehold of the Orthodox on the holy sites (and on much else) is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/111 "2013-02-12T23:16:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m still here 🙂 > > It sounds like the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against the women because, basically, they’d make less of a fuss in defeat. You are courageous. I don’t know the logic of the ruling. I think it was made quite some time ago, and seemingly it did not create a big fuss. I faintly remember it mandated the renovation of a previously unused portion of the wall for the usage of these women, and that did not happen. Anyway, the Supreme Court tries, as much as possible, to maintain the status quo in Jerusalem, because that is the least incendiary. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/112 "2013-02-12T23:21:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In essence yes. > > Another way of putting the same point is that the legal authorities are simply disposed to support the religious _status quo_ (however unjust to some) for fear that any changes would cause rioting or worse. > > Personally, on this point I’d cut them some slack, even though I agree with the women’s group that the stranglehold of the Orthodox on the holy sites (and on much else) is a problem. This makes sense. It still seems to me that the women were behaving in an appropriate way- civil disobedience can be appropriate, IMO, when fighting for civil rights. But I think I can also understand why the courts decided the way they did. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/113 "2013-02-12T23:29:12Z")
In any case, while Googling to find when Judaism started to be matrilinear (answer: first century AD), I found out that Obama is not only suspected to be Muslim, but also Jewish: [Barack Obama is a Jew](http://whiteswillwinparty.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/barack-obama-is-a-jew/) Now I understand why he doesn’t get along so well with Netaniahu 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/114 "2013-02-12T23:29:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This makes sense. It still seems to me that the women were behaving in an appropriate way- civil disobedience can be appropriate, IMO, when fighting for civil rights. But I think I can also understand why the courts decided the way they did. The two positions are not inconsistent. The women’s group was right to civilly disobey to create publicity for their cause - which is I think a good cause. The legal authorities were right to remove the civilly-disobeying group until such time as the political authorities work out an equitable solution (assuming of course that they do), so as to avoid problems - like hordes of rioting religious extremists (an all too frequent occurrance in Jerusalem). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/115 "2013-02-12T23:51:26Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > In any case, while Googling to find when Judaism started to be matrilinear (answer: first century AD), I found out that Obama is not only suspected to be Muslim, but also Jewish: > [Barack Obama is a Jew](http://whiteswillwinparty.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/barack-obama-is-a-jew/) Wow, his Grandfather was a furniture salesman! That settles it! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/116 "2013-02-13T01:12:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite - I am Israeli. I know how it is. Reform have been trying to make inroads in Israel for 40 years or so. No success. Miniscule number of followers. > > If you don’t believe me, ask some other Israelis on the forum. Alessan, etc. I have three Israeli Jewish friends. All of them hate the ultra-orthodox. Reform may not be particularly popular. Conservadox (which is what one friend calls herself) and other forms of Judaism that repudiate the kind of traditional sex and sexist gender roles so beloved by nuts like Haredim most certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/117 "2013-02-13T03:49:47Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > In any case, while Googling to find when Judaism started to be matrilinear (answer: first century AD), I found out that Obama is not only suspected to be Muslim, but also Jewish: > [Barack Obama is a Jew](http://whiteswillwinparty.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/barack-obama-is-a-jew/) > > Now I understand why he doesn’t get along so well with Netaniahu 😉 I suspect that link is a parody though I could be wrong. Poe’s law and all. That said, I’ve always wondered, based on his name if people would start thinking Obama was Jewish. Then again, morons like that, other than Jewish morons obviously, usually are too dumb to recognize Hebrew names. I’ve often wondered if Israelis like to joke about it. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/118 "2013-02-13T20:26:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m still here 🙂 > > At first I thought I might be missing something. I don’t think I am, except perhaps I underestimated rabid violent passion of various religious groups in the region. It sounds like the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against the women because, basically, they’d make less of a fuss in defeat. Good thing they started kicking up more of a fuss then, huh? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/119 "2013-02-13T20:48:32Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Good thing they started kicking up more of a fuss then, huh? You may be right - but the timeline is different. The court decision is from some time ago. This is OK, court decisions were never seen as a high obstacle by the ultra-orthodox, so what those women did is entirely commendable. Personally, I would prefer that site to hold less attraction; holy sites sound idolatrous to me. But what do I know ? I’m an unbeliever. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/120 "2013-02-13T22:15:44Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Good thing they started kicking up more of a fuss then, huh? Yeah, because the one thing Jerusalem truly lacks, is religious people kicking up an angry fuss about something. 😃 Mind you, I’m in agreement that their cause is more attractive than most that cause a fuss there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=7)