# Freedom of religion in Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995 "2013-02-11T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/121 "2013-02-13T22:21:35Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > You may be right - but the timeline is different. The court decision is from some time ago. > > This is OK, court decisions were never seen as a high obstacle by the ultra-orthodox, so what those women did is entirely commendable. > > Personally, I would prefer that site to hold less attraction; holy sites sound idolatrous to me. But what do I know ? I’m an unbeliever. Heh. It’s almost characteristic of us Jewish unbelievers to nonetheless care about concepts like idolatry. 😃 Myself, I can even rationalize it (somewhat) - idolatry is a bad thing because it is mistaking the symbolic for the actual, and it remains a bad thing even if the “actual” is merely an abstract concept that we know has no literal existence - such as the Jewish notion of God. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/122 "2013-02-14T02:12:30Z")
You are of course right. Funny enough I struggled somewhat over adding that sentence. I wanted to to add in parentheses “is idolatry really so bad?” and decided against it. What sealed it was that I remembered Yeshayahu Leibowitz naming the wall “disco-kotel” and I saw the image of praying to the golden calf. It’s the hypocrisy of the ultra-orthodox that angered me. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/123 "2013-02-14T16:56:36Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > You’re right, but I will confuse you even more. There are 2 flavors of Ultra-Orthodox - the Zionist and the not-Zionist or anti-Zionist. Someone who is “not-Zionist” is not the equivalent of “anti-Zionist.” I have several friends who are not Zionists, but they are not anti-Zionists. Trust me on this one. > [@](#): > > What you mentioned above are the Zionist Ultra-Orthodox. They see the land of Israel as a the pinnacle of their faith and constitute the arrowhead of the West Bank settlers. I don’t think I’d define it like that. They worship God, not the land, so I don’t think I’d see it as the “pinnacle of their faith.” I think you’re confusing “Zionist Ultra-Orthodox” with the [Hilltop Youth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilltop_Youth). You might be interested to know that not all Orthodox residents of Yehuda and the Shomron agree with much of what the Hilltop Youth kids do. > [@](#): > > They are Messianic and somewhat similar in the psychological makeup with the American Evangelists. _All_ Orthodox Jews are, by definition, Messianic. We all believe in the coming of the Mashiach. This is not something that defines Zionists. > [@](#): > > The other flavor, the non-Zionists or even anti-Zionist will not go beyond the Wailing Wall to the Temple Mount (where the mosques are located) since they claim it is a ground too holy, even to step on, until the Messiah comes. They are much more numerous than the first type and they see their Messianism as Apostasy. Not going to the Temple Mount has nothing to to with Zionism/anti-Zionism. There are legitimate halachic questions as to where one may go on the Mount, or even if one may go at all. Many rabbis in the dati-leumi world agree that people should not go there. It’s just not a Zionist/anti-Zionist thing. Don’t get confuse this with Satmar Hasidim, who apparently won’t go to the Kotel (Western/Wailing Wall) because one of the previous Rebbes said not to go. That was anti-Zionism. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/124 "2013-02-16T01:48:38Z")
There’s nothing like a good fight between 2 Jews to raise the spirits. I didn’t say half of the things you are rebutting. So: > [@](#): > > Someone who is “not-Zionist” is not the equivalent of “anti-Zionist” Of course. That’s why I used the word **or**. However even the regular non-Zionist “Haredim” (i.e. Agudat Israel) cannot really accept the Halachic lawfulness of the State of Israel. As you probably know, they are not willing to serve as **ministers** in a government, since this will turn the _de facto_ acceptance of the Jewish state into _de jure_. I should also say that Agudat Israel fought the Zionists at each step prior to the creation of the state. On an individual basis, they can be very Zionist, especially those who immigrated from Western countries. > [@](#): > > They worship God, not the land. Of course. Many people worship God, but only some of them _are certain_ that God wants us to rule over the whole of Eretz-Israel **NOW** , and the hell with everything else. The big problem with many who worship God is that they seem to be certain about the wishes of God, and unfortunately those certainties are very different in different groups. > [@](#): > > I think you’re confusing “Zionist Ultra-Orthodox” with the Hilltop Youth Oh, no. I’m not. The hilltop guys are just lost souls. Basically I empathize with their plight. What I mean are people like Kahana and his many followers, people like Shapira and Elitzur from “Od Yosef Chai”, Dov Lior, Ginsburg, and many other Rabbis. Also very dangerous people, like those who want to destroy the Muslim mosques on the Temple mount and build the 3rd temple instead. > [@](#): > > All Orthodox Jews are, by definition, Messianic. Yes, of course, probably not only the Orthodox. The big question, of course, is the interpretation of when the Messiah will come and whether we are allowed to do anything to hasten his coming. This holds some of the biggest divisions in Judaism. The guys wanting to destroy the mosques think they will bring the Armageddon and thus Messiah will have to appear. Basically, this is also the Evangelist view, only that in their version most of the Jews are killed, and the others convert to Christianity. Maybe you take a look at [Jeremy Gimpel](http://youtu.be/f-NO4l8Gzj0) speaking at an evangelist church about blowing up the Temple Mount Mosques. He ain’t the “hilltop youth”, he was number 14 in the Bennett’s party list. Regarding being allowed to step on the Temple Mount. I think that _all_ haredim (ultra-orthodox) and most of the Zionist orthodox think that it is forbidden. I agree with you here. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/125 "2013-02-16T02:37:17Z")
At some point there were rumors that excavations in the Temple Mount were underway, and Jewish artifacts were being destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995/126 "2013-02-16T17:29:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > At some point there were rumors that excavations in the Temple Mount were underway, and Jewish artifacts were being destroyed. The [rumors](http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/02/waqf-ignores-high-court-ruling-continues-to-destroy-temple-mount-artifacts/) [are](http://unitedwithisrael.org/muslim-waqf-destroying-jewish-antiquities/) [true](http://jcpa.org/jl/vp483.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-in-israel/649995.md?page=6)