# Freedom of Religion: Mennonite refuses to participate in death penalty murder case. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751 "2018-02-28T14:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/41 "2018-02-28T19:50:56Z")
No, it really has nothing to do with the job she was hired for. If you are subpoenaed as a witness, you have to testify. Even if she had nothing to do with the defense work but could reasonably have useful testimony then she would still be required to show up regardless of her feelings on the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/42 "2018-02-28T19:56:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hey, lawyer-client privilege exists so why not accountant-client privelege? Why not hair dresser-client privilege? > > Priest-penitent privelege is not a religious exemption from testifying. It is a private trusted counsel exemption. If we want to extend that to every person who works for the defense team, that’s not totally unreasonable. But “my religion says not to follow court orders” is not. Absolutely–and I’d support a law that says that you may not be subpoenaed for information you learned specifically while working on behalf of a defense attorney, as a very reasonable extension of lawyer-client privilege. I could even maybe see a judge deciding that the attorney-client privilege extended in this case (although I’m not wedded to this position and can easily imagine someone providing a cite showing why that’d be a faulty ruling). But I don’t think religion is a good basis for such a decision. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/43 "2018-02-28T20:11:34Z")
Too bad for her if she thought being an investigator for the defense meant she would only ever have to testify _for_ the defense and not answer any questions from the prosecution. Hold her in contempt until she complies or the prosecution decides it doesn’t need or want her testimony any more. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/44 "2018-02-28T20:22:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Absolutely–and I’d support a law that says that you may not be subpoenaed for information you learned specifically while working on behalf of a defense attorney, as a very reasonable extension of lawyer-client privilege. I could even maybe see a judge deciding that the attorney-client privilege extended in this case (although I’m not wedded to this position and can easily imagine someone providing a cite showing why that’d be a faulty ruling). I can sort of answer this question, at least. One of the issues in the case is whether the defendant was inadequately represented by his defense team. The government wants her to testify to demonstrate that her work on his behalf was sufficiently competent. As a general rule, when you assert ineffective assistance of counsel, you waive privilege for your communications with the allegedly ineffective attorneys (and their staffs). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/45 "2018-02-28T20:40:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think she should do her job and testify. > > That being said, she should be treated the same under the law as other religious freedom activists. Courts recently supported the baker who refused to bake cakes for gay weddings, and it would be travesty of justice if the worthiness of her religious freedom hinged on where it falls on the political spectrum. Agreed. She should not be forced to bake a cake for a death penalty celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/46 "2018-02-28T20:46:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed. She should not be forced to bake a cake for a death penalty celebration. Maybe she could just _mix_ the cake and Ray can hold the pan on his lap when they give him the chair. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/47 "2018-02-28T20:57:02Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I can sort of answer this question, at least. One of the issues in the case is whether the defendant was inadequately represented by his defense team. The government wants her to testify to demonstrate that her work on his behalf was sufficiently competent. > > As a general rule, when you assert ineffective assistance of counsel, you waive privilege for your communications with the allegedly ineffective attorneys (and their staffs). Huh. That’s interesting. It is in her interests, then, to appear incompetent; she worries that by testifying, she’ll show herself sufficiently competent at defending him that she’ll fail to defend him. That’s gotta be the best Catch-22 I’ve ever seen in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/48 "2018-02-28T22:26:46Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > There has been another freedom of religion case that popped up here in Colorado. It seems that an investigator who did work for the defense team of a murderer has been jailed for contempt as she has been refusing to answer the prosecutors questions about her research. The religion aspect seems to be a side issue here. I’d say the important part is that she was part of the defense team. Not an actual lawyer, but involved. I’d say that ought to be enough to get the lawyer-client privilege to cover this. If courts interpreted this privilege so narrowly as to only apply to the lawyer, it might be easy to get around it. The prosecution can’t get testimony from the defense lawyer, so they subpoena the stenographer who took shorthand notes of their conversation? Or subpoena the typist who transcribed those notes? Unless the confidentiality extends to everyone on the defense team, it could become meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/49 "2018-03-01T00:10:49Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The religion aspect seems to be a side issue here. > > I’d say the important part is that she was part of the defense team. Not an actual lawyer, but involved. I’d say that ought to be enough to get the lawyer-client privilege to cover this. If courts interpreted this privilege so narrowly as to only apply to the lawyer, it might be easy to get around it. The prosecution can’t get testimony from the defense lawyer, so they subpoena the stenographer who took shorthand notes of their conversation? Or subpoena the typist who transcribed those notes? Unless the confidentiality extends to everyone on the defense team, it could become meaningless. Except that, as I understand it, she testified in the original trial. At that time she was subject to cross-examination by the prosecution and required to answer truthfully. She should expect that to still hold in the appeal. In case it’s not evident, everything I know about the law I learned from Jack McCoy. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/50 "2018-03-01T00:38:14Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > Except that, as I understand it, she testified in the original trial. Do you mind saying how you gained that understanding? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/51 "2018-03-01T01:28:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > God also commanded that people not kill. The Bible contradicts itself, this is not news. > The entire anabaptist crowd (of which Mennonites are one) are known for enduring jail rather than violating their beliefs. If you can’t get her to budge by sticking her in jail what are you going to do then? God commanded that people not murder; not kill. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/52 "2018-03-01T02:56:22Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > contradiction in terms; and, so far as that point is concerned, their religion is NOT Christianity, regardless of how orthodox it may be in other points. Eh, I’d say [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis) disagrees. And I’m pretty sure he’s a Christian, although of a [rather small branch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church#Membership). :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/53 "2018-03-01T03:16:27Z")
**Flyer** , have you ever worn a shirt that’s a cotton-polyester blend? If so, how can you call yourself a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/54 "2018-03-01T04:04:09Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Hold the phone. > > Your position is that support of the death penalty is a required tenant of Christianity? Nope. And not a tenet either. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/55 "2018-03-01T04:14:51Z")
I think if you choose a career as an investigator for a defense attorney, that comes with the territory. She should have made that part of her condition of employment - if she’s really good, maybe she still would have been hired. Or she should move to a state where they don’t have the death penalty if she wants to practice as a criminal investigator. This looks like obstruction to me. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/56 "2018-03-01T04:26:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Flyer** , have you ever worn a shirt that’s a cotton-polyester blend? If so, how can you call yourself a Christian? It could be argued that polyester isn’t really a fabric. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/57 "2018-03-01T05:00:16Z")
**Flyer** ’s odd beliefs regarding religious beliefs is irrelevant to the thread. Please refrain from promoting a hijack in opposition to or defense of his claims. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/58 "2018-03-01T05:11:33Z")
Why does her written report not suffice? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/59 "2018-03-01T05:20:32Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Why does her written report not suffice? Because she’s been called to testify by the prosecution. If you mean why did they call her, I assume they want to ask how she conducted her investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/60 "2018-03-01T05:37:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …She may well decide that suffering the penalty for contempt of court is worth it to maintain her beliefs. She may also decide to risk perjury to maintain her beliefs. I could honestly respect either decision. But I think the law must be able to compel testimony without carving out a religious exemption. Hmm…what ever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751.md?page=4)