# Freedom of Religion: Mennonite refuses to participate in death penalty murder case. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751 "2018-02-28T14:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/61 "2018-03-01T05:45:10Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Hmm…what ever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” Nothing. Nothing happened to it. What the heck are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/62 "2018-03-01T06:45:43Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Why does her written report not suffice? I think her report, standing alone, would be hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/63 "2018-03-01T07:34:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Hmm…what ever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” > [@CarnalK](#): > > Nothing. Nothing happened to it. What the heck are you talking about? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …She may also decide to risk perjury to maintain her beliefs. I could honestly respect either decision… That. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/64 "2018-03-01T08:23:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So if someone signs up for the military, then has a conversion experience, it’s too late to claim conscientious objector status? In most countries, yes. You can take your next chance out, and you can ask to be sent to non-combat jobs, but you can’t say “I’ve decided I want to spend the rest of my time in service doing charity work instead”. Currently Spain has SSM. When we got it, elected officers who were authorized marriage recorders prior to the new law could claim conscientious objection for the duration of that term; anybody who’s been elected after has to record any marriage that’s legal, period. It’s part of the job. We also do not ask cops what’s their opinion on current laws, we ask them to investigate possible breaches of those laws. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/65 "2018-03-01T15:40:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Hmm…what ever happened to “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” One of at least two things: 1. NON-LITERAL: You understand that the Bible isn’t to be taken literally, but provides general moral guidance. Sometimes a greater good may be served by a smaller sin. 2. LITERAL: It’s “Thou shalt not bear false witness **against thy neighbor**.” Presumably this investigator isn’t neighbors with herself, and the perjury she’d need to commit would be against herself, which is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/66 "2018-03-01T18:18:31Z")
The better option IMO would be to refuse to testify rather than give false testimony. Civil disobedience in some sense means you are willing to suffer the consequences in hopes of highlighting the injustice. MLK Jr. didn’t plot how to break out of Birmingham jail. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/67 "2018-03-01T18:23:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The better option IMO would be to refuse to testify rather than give false testimony. Civil disobedience in some sense means you are willing to suffer the consequences in hopes of highlighting the injustice. MLK Jr. didn’t plot how to break out of Birmingham jail. I can absolutely respect that. But what if you believe that: 1. You share responsibility for the foreseeable consequences of your decisions; and 2. If you decide to withhold your testimony instead of deciding to lie, it increases the likelihood that someone will be executed; and 3. Execution is a moral evil? If that’s the case, while civil disobedience may be a “purer” option, perjury might be the option that saves a life. It’s akin to the classic question of what you’d do if the Nazis ask you whether a Jewish family is hiding in your attic. Refusing to answer may be civil disobedience, but lying to the governmental authority may save a life. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/68 "2018-03-01T19:18:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I can absolutely respect that. But what if you believe that: > > 1. You share responsibility for the foreseeable consequences of your decisions; and > 2. If you decide to withhold your testimony instead of deciding to lie, it increases the likelihood that someone will be executed; and > 3. Execution is a moral evil? > > If that’s the case, while civil disobedience may be a “purer” option, perjury might be the option that saves a life. It’s akin to the classic question of what you’d do if the Nazis ask you whether a Jewish family is hiding in your attic. Refusing to answer may be civil disobedience, but lying to the governmental authority may save a life. Agreed, and the ‘lying about Ann Frank in your attic’ is the same example that occurred to me. ISTM that 2) is the key decision point - is it more likely than Joe Criminal will get the DP if she says nothing, or if she perjures herself? In this instance, I don’t know how, or if, that can be determined. If there is some incriminating evidence that only the investigator has, then remaining silent or perjuring herself will have the same effect, because the evidence won’t come out. Thus silence is better than perjury because it respects the civil authority. If the evidence can be brought out in some other way, thru documentation or whatever, then perjury is worse, because it can be used to discredit her exculpatory testimony and thus doesn’t help. I have no idea if the penalties for perjury and for contempt of court are the same. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/69 "2018-03-01T19:30:45Z")
This is not at all like lying to the Nazis about Anne Frank. It’s not even like testifying against a Nazi. She’s testifying about the competency of the defense of someone that has been convicted of murder already. And her claim is that this testimony could lead to the application of the death penalty so I assume it is incriminating information. So she is refusing to supply incriminating information about a murderer because he might be executed as a result. She can refuse if she wants and suffer the consequences, and there won’t be many consequences I think, but it’s not much of a principle to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/70 "2018-03-01T19:53:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One of at least two things: > > 1. NON-LITERAL: You understand that the Bible isn’t to be taken literally, but provides general moral guidance. Sometimes a greater good may be served by a smaller sin. > 2. LITERAL: It’s “Thou shalt not bear false witness **against thy neighbor**.” Presumably this investigator isn’t neighbors with herself, and the perjury she’d need to commit would be against herself, which is not forbidden anywhere in the Bible. That’s a heckuva piece of rationalization rot thayer… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/71 "2018-03-01T20:02:26Z")
What was her plan if her investigation had turned up evidence favorable to the defendant? Was she going to testify on direct and then refuse to be cross-examined? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/72 "2018-03-01T20:10:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is not at all like lying to the Nazis about Anne Frank. From her POV it is. She believes it is wrong to kill anybody - innocent Jews, convicted murderers, anybody. I don’t agree with the principle, but I can see what it is. There is a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate oneself. The GD seems to be, should there be a First Amendment right not to incriminate someone else if that someone might get the death penalty as a result. I would say No. If a witness is subpoena’ed in a case, even a capital case, then either testify, or suffer the consequences. But then again, I have no problem with the DP. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/73 "2018-03-01T20:27:14Z")
This may be a hijack or maybe not. Suppose she witnessed a murder and was called by the prosecution in a trial where the death penalty was on the table. Would she have a religious right (and duty) not to testify? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/74 "2018-03-01T20:37:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From her POV it is. She believes it is wrong to kill anybody - innocent Jews, convicted murderers, anybody. I don’t agree with the principle, but I can see what it is. I think it’s a weak principle. She is saying she would refuse to provide testimony that might be used to execute a murderer. How does that look compared to the possibility of a murderer being set free because she refused to testify? Does she worry as much about the possibility of this man murdering again? Again, nothing much will happen to her if she refuses to testify. Maybe she’ll spend a few nights in jail which will make her a hero among her peers. Everybody has the right to refuse and suffer the consequences but I don’t have any sympathy for her and her short-sighted kick the can down the road morality. Remember that she decided to work as an investigator in a murder case, and this was a foreseeable outcome of her work. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/75 "2018-03-01T23:48:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > This may be a hijack or maybe not. > Suppose she witnessed a murder and was called by the prosecution in a trial where the death penalty was on the table. Would she have a religious right (and duty) not to testify? From being raised in the church I would say that the answer is yes. I remember talking about hypotheticals like this back when I was in the church (as a teenager, more than 30 years ago, so take this with a grain of salt) and the consensus was that it would be wrong to kill Hitler or Stalin if given the opportunity. Keep in mind we were talking about our immortal soul here. > [@Shodan](#): > > From her POV it is. She believes it is wrong to kill anybody - innocent Jews, convicted murderers, anybody. I don’t agree with the principle, but I can see what it is. > > There is a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate oneself. The GD seems to be, should there be a First Amendment right not to incriminate someone else if that someone might get the death penalty as a result. > > I would say No. If a witness is subpoena’ed in a case, even a capital case, then either testify, or suffer the consequences. But then again, I have no problem with the DP. > > Regards, > Shodan For the record, I agree with you and I have a problem with the death penalty. She seems to agree with you also as she seems to be prepared to stay in jail as long as it takes. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/76 "2018-03-02T01:24:29Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Do you mind saying how you gained that understanding? I read other articles than the one linked that seemed to imply she had. I’ve now examined those articles and see no strong inference to that effect. I may have been influenced by an unconscious assumption that any information she’d gathered would have to be introduced by her own direct testimony. I appreciate your motivating me to re-examine my own thought processes. And I blame Jack McCoy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/77 "2018-03-02T14:01:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think it’s a weak principle. She is saying she would refuse to provide testimony that might be used to execute a murderer. How does that look compared to the possibility of a murderer being set free because she refused to testify? Does she worry as much about the possibility of this man murdering again? I think it’s weak as well, but again, I support the DP. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > This may be a hijack or maybe not. > Suppose she witnessed a murder and was called by the prosecution in a trial where the death penalty was on the table. Would she have a religious right (and duty) not to testify? I think that’s a valid point - if the DP is a possibility, can one not participate in the process at all? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/78 "2018-03-02T15:51:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > God also commanded that people not kill. The Bible contradicts itself, this is not news. That is Thou shalt not _murder._ No contradiction there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/79 "2018-03-02T20:41:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > That’s a heckuva piece of rationalization rot thayer… Oh shit, did I just interpret scripture to support the beliefs I already have? No wonder I’m not a Christian, that’s completely out of any theological mainstream! But you’re wrong, there’s no “rationalization” there at all. The bit about false witness against thy neighbor is often incorrectly paraphrased as “don’t lie,” but it’s a very specific sort of lie that’s forbidden. The perjury she might commit in this case isn’t remotely circumscribed by the passage you quoted. > [@Shodan](#): > > There is a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate oneself. The GD seems to be, should there be a First Amendment right not to incriminate someone else if that someone might get the death penalty as a result. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What was her plan if her investigation had turned up evidence favorable to the defendant? Was she going to testify on direct and then refuse to be cross-examined? This case is weird, though. AFAICT, it goes something like this: 1. Dude probably committed a murder. 2. Dude was tried for murder. 3. She worked on behalf of the defense. 4. Despite her work, dude was convicted. 5. Dude appealed, saying the defense was incompetent. 6. Prosecution wants to call her, NOT TO INCRIMINATE HIM OR ANYONE ELSE, but simply to prove that she’s competent, and by extension his appeal is groundless. So the testimony she would give wouldn’t incriminate him or anyone. It would simply show the competence of the defense. If she’s competent at defending him, he’s going to die; his only valid defense will be if she’s incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751/80 "2018-03-02T20:54:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh shit, did I just interpret scripture to support the beliefs I already have? No wonder I’m not a Christian, that’s completely out of any theological mainstream! > > But you’re wrong, there’s no “rationalization” there at all. The bit about false witness against thy neighbor is often incorrectly paraphrased as “don’t lie,” but it’s a very specific sort of lie that’s forbidden. The perjury she might commit in this case isn’t remotely circumscribed by the passage you quoted. I wanna walk this back, sort of. There wasn’t really rationalization here, but I think there may have been ignorance. I blame Heinlein. Years ago I read a Heinlein book where a mouthpiece character made pretty much the argument I made (IIRC), and ever since I’ve taken it as accurate. But in a cursory Googlesearch, it looks like Heinlein, and I, were wrong: the Bible is specifically calling out perjury, as witness testimony was so key to ancient Hebrew justice. And while false witness to convict was punished as severely as the putative crime, failure to testify to witnessing a crime was considered a lesser, but still severe, sin, and is called out for that in other places in the Bible. Mea culpa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-religion-mennonite-refuses-to-participate-in-death-penalty-murder-case/809751.md?page=5)