# Freedom of Speech or Hate Crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303 "2007-05-24T01:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/21 "2007-05-26T21:41:37Z")
Sorry for the x2 post, but: “They had the intent to alarm and disturb another, and they were successful in that,” Bianchi said. “In alarming and disturbing, they also committed a hate crime. Their words … were directed against a specific individual of a certain sexual orientation.” I really hope he’s just saying this because he thinks he has to, and not because he actually believes it. I mean, if you really don’t think the freedom of speech includes saying things that are “alarming and disturbing” then what the hell do you imagine it means? And what could be more alarming or disturbing than a prosecutor who doesn’t believe in the first amendment? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/22 "2007-05-26T21:43:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Uh-oh. Here we go [again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421415&highlight=retarded). [/QUOTE] Perhaps I “alarmed or disturbed” someone by using the word “retarded.” Hopefully, it won’t land me in jail. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/23 "2007-05-26T21:48:17Z")
[QUOTE=LinusK] Perhaps I “alarmed or disturbed” someone by using the word “retarded.” Hopefully, it won’t land me in jail. [/QUOTE] No, but it might land your virtual self in the Pit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/24 "2007-05-26T22:30:13Z")
[QUOTE=LinusK] I really hope he’s just saying this because he thinks he has to, and not because he actually believes it. I mean, if you really don’t think the freedom of speech includes saying things that are “alarming and disturbing” then what the hell do you imagine it means? And what could be more alarming or disturbing than a prosecutor who doesn’t believe in the first amendment? [/QUOTE] There’s alarming and disturbing, and then there’s alarming and disturbing. If I say, for example, that the movie Soylent Green had the right idea, and we should start killing and eating people, that may alarm and disturb you, but it’s my right to say so. If, I say, on the other hand, that I’m planning to kill and eat you, that’s a whole different level of disturbing and alarming. Saying that “God hates fags” is a political and moral opinion, albeit a reprehensible one. Making t-shirts of a particular person, a private figure, singling him out, in order to defame him, goes beyond that to harassment. If these girls had gone up to the kid every day and said, “You’re a faggot and God hates you”, that would be harassment. This is harassment too. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/25 "2007-05-26T23:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Valgard] To personalize this, I will defend David Duke’s right to say that he doesn’t like Jews. However if David Duke starts putting out leaflets saying something like “Let’s get that Jewboy Valgard” then he’s giving me reason to fear for my personal safety and I’ll be giving the cops a little call. [/QUOTE] Would you say that the difference in your example is the “Let’s get…”? Without it, as I think is the case with the OP, isn’t just “Hey look, Johnny’s gay!”? Would that qualify as some type of crime? [QUOTE=John Mace] And if it wasn’t a crime, it certainly should be against school policy to harass a fellow student. When you set foot on school grounds, you have to accept some restrictions on behavior that would otherwise be protected off campus. [/QUOTE] Unless there was a threat made, I agree that this is how it should be handled. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/26 "2007-05-26T23:58:26Z")
It was incredibly malicious and perhaps cruel. If they did cross the boundary to harassment {it sure seems they did} then they should be taught that it’s a serious thing. These are young ladies close enough to adulthood that they need to realize actions have real consequences. Still, I’m having a hard time with hate crime. It seems to minimize the term too much. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/27 "2007-05-27T02:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The difference here is that they put a picture of a specific guy, someone at their school, on the shirts as well. [/QUOTE] Can you tell me where you saw this? I don’t see anything in the Fox story or Herald article coming right out and saying that the boy they were “feuding” with was specifically identified, on flyers or shirts. Until more information is made available, it sounds to me as if the school authorities were justified in suspending the two girls, but that the hate crime charges are questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/28 "2007-05-27T15:47:11Z")
I don’t understand why there has to be all this controversy and complication. Can’t we just make coercion (initial force or fraud or threat of those) a crime? And can’t it be a crime whether it’s against one person or a whole group of people? I mean, if someone placed a scam ad that said: “Attention Elderly People: send us 5$ and we’ll send you back $10”, shouldn’t that be just as criminal as if it said: “Attention Old Widow Jones”? Shouldn’t people be free from the coercion of other people no matter whether it’s motivated by hate, greed, or just plain meanness? And no matter whether it’s because he’s one or one of many? If there’s a call to hurt Billy because he’s gay, or just to hurt all gays, the only difference is how many, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t both be crimes? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/29 "2007-05-27T16:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Can you tell me where you saw this? I don’t see anything in the Fox story or Herald article coming right out and saying that the boy they were “feuding” with was specifically identified, on flyers or shirts. [/QUOTE] Maybe I read it wrong, but I interpreted this to mean it was a specific student at the school, not just some unknown guy (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > The girls were arrested May 11 after handing out fliers in the parking lot of Crystal Lake South High School that depict a male student kissing another boy and contain hateful language about gays. That would be an odd way to describe an unknown person. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/30 "2007-05-27T17:24:45Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I don’t understand why there has to be all this controversy and complication. Can’t we just make coercion (initial force or fraud or threat of those) a crime? And can’t it be a crime whether it’s against one person or a whole group of people? I mean, if someone placed a scam ad that said: “Attention Elderly People: send us 5$ and we’ll send you back $10”, shouldn’t that be just as criminal as if it said: “Attention Old Widow Jones”? Shouldn’t people be free from the coercion of other people no matter whether it’s motivated by hate, greed, or just plain meanness? And no matter whether it’s because he’s one or one of many? If there’s a call to hurt Billy because he’s gay, or just to hurt all gays, the only difference is how many, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t both be crimes? [/QUOTE] Because it’s far too vague, and what is coercion to one person isn’t always coercion to another. I’m not knocking you, just saying that I can’t see this idea as being very practical. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/31 "2007-05-27T17:28:48Z")
Let us assume that it does not _explicitly_ target the gay guy but that he is one of only a few “out” in his school. Does “God hates fags” still count as hate speech? Well, if there was one Jewish kid in the school and someone passed around flers that said “God hates kikes” with a picture of a hook-nosed guy I’d say it was hate speech. Same with Black or Arab vulgar insults. So yes it is hate speech. Should hate speech be prohibited within a school? Yes. In society? Not without a direct physical threat. So from the original story (already linked) > [@](#): > > Authorities say the fliers were directed specifically toward a male classmate — and neighbor of one of the girls — with whom they had been feuding. Both girls are suspended from school as a result, authorities said Tuesday, and likely will not be allowed back until at least the next school year. Suspension without a doubt. The criminal charge depends on the ability of “the authorities” to make the case that “the fliers were directed specifically toward a male classmate — and neighbor of one of the girls — with whom they had been feuding” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/32 "2007-05-27T17:38:11Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Can you provide an example of a democracy where it’s illegal to think something? Every example of “hate crime” legislation I’ve ever seen made it illegal to DO something, not just think it. [/QUOTE] In Europe, particularly in Germany, there are things you cannot say. Example, you cannot deny the [holocaust](http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/12/40669), and that law extends internationally. I also find hate-crime legislation disturbing. It get’s promoted in the news when a heinous crime is committed such as the James Byrd murder. We already have laws that allow for malicious intent during sentencing. Hate crime laws offer a foot in the door of free speech limitations. It’s politically correct nonsense legislation. As usual, the news cited was anything but news. No real information was given in order to form an opinion. Locking her up without bail makes it sound like the girl intended to kill her neighbor. Personally, I would expect her to be expelled from school in today’s climate of zero tolerance. Any kind of vitriol against another student constitutes a crime worthy of scholastic death. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/33 "2007-05-27T23:54:43Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Because it’s far too vague, and what is coercion to one person isn’t always coercion to another. I’m not knocking you, just saying that I can’t see this idea as being very practical. [/QUOTE] And I’m not knocking you either, but if things are so clear and practical as they are, why is there a debate called “Freedom of Speech or Hate Crime”? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/34 "2007-05-28T00:46:58Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I like for the freedom of speech to be as loosely interpreted as possible. I don’t want to see the introduction of “hate speech” laws in the United States like there is in Canada and Europe. The idea that someone can express an opinion, and be put in prison for _years_ (like the Austrian holocaust denier) because of it is reprehensible (although maybe not as reprehensible as holocaust denial, that’s beside the point.) Without knowing more of the specifics, if the fliers were specific threats or would constitute legal harassment, something should be done. If they were vague and can’t be interpreted as harassment, then no one should be punished (by the law.) [/QUOTE] I truly hope someday laws will be passed against hate crimes and hate groups. We don’t need them. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/35 "2007-05-28T04:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I truly hope someday laws will be passed against hate crimes and hate groups. We don’t need them. [/QUOTE] Who will get to decide what constitutes a hate crime? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/36 "2007-05-28T07:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Who will get to decide what constitutes a hate crime? [/QUOTE] I say we prosecute people for hate crimes in order of how loudly they protest. Phelps & Co would be high on the list KKK Various Xtian groups protesting gay marriage and abortion clinics. Need I go on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303/37 "2007-05-28T07:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] [Link.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275096,00.html) I’m torn on this one. I support freedom of speech, but I also support gay rights and the right of anybody to be free from harrassment. Thoughts? Opinions? [/QUOTE] Can’t you cut and paste a few paragraphs so we’ll know what you are talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-of-speech-or-hate-crime/405303.md?page=1)