# Freedom = USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177 "2004-04-09T14:29:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/21 "2004-04-09T19:01:59Z")
> [@swami](#): > > I want to ask our American dopers a question. Do you equate USA with the word freedom? Are the two ideas indistinguishable, like synonyms? This does seem to be is the clear impression that is coming from you. Examples: > > The national anthem - “home of the free”… Land of the free, actually. I think there are a lot of people, who, if they had their druthers, would replace The Star Spangled Banner with America the Beautiful. The content is more neutral, and it’s easier to sing. Plus it’s not littered with archaic prose like “O’er ramparts we watched…” But it doesn’t seem unique at all. I don’t know how accurate this site [http://www.thenationalanthems.com](http://www.thenationalanthems.com) is, but here are sections they translated from other national athems: Albania: We stand in the battle for right and **freedom** , The enemies of the people stand alone, The hero dedicates his life to our land, ## Even in dying he will be brave. Austria: Watch us striding **free** and believing, With courage, into new eras, * * * France: ## Sacred Love for the Fatherland Lead and support our avenging arms Liberty, cherished liberty Ireland: ## Soldiers are we whose lives are pledged to Ireland; Some have come from a land beyond the wave, Sworn to be **free** , Philippines: Do we behold thy radiance, feel the throb Of glorious **liberty**. Shall I go on?.. > [@](#): > > To make **French** fries “more American” they change the words to “ **Freedom** Fries” > > more recently… > > [Iraqis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=250053) are fighting American troops because they hate freedom. Yeah, but that’s just rhetoric. Pretty much every government engages in that at one time or another. > [@](#): > > Is this what Americans generally view themselves as? To outsiders, does this point of view bother you? Would you see it as somewhat simplistic and maybe arrogant? Well I _do_ think that Americans enjoy a remarkably free society, but it’s certainly not unique to our country. Yes, there are a lot of people here who _are_ arrogant, but what people from other countries tend to forget is that there are also many of us who _abhor_ such arrogance. And not to wave the flag, but I think it’s a good thing that both sides are allowed to have a voice. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/22 "2004-04-09T19:04:51Z")
ps The whole “because they hate freedom thing” is absurd on it’s face. I’ve no idea why one adult would expect another grown person to swallow this’n. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/23 "2004-04-09T19:33:54Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > The whole “because they hate freedom thing” is absurd on it’s face. I’ve no idea why one adult would expect another grown person to swallow this’n. That’s because the people saying this think we’re all a bunch of idiots. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/24 "2004-04-09T19:34:00Z")
Free to have your kids brainwashed by the TV and incompetent schools. Free to listen to economists talking about economic growth but can’t mention planned obsolescence in cars 35 years after the moon landing. Free to be dumb but penalized for being smart unless you are sneaky about it. Like Bill Maher kicked of the TV and Oprah is still there. Typical country full of human beings on the planet, just richer than most. Maybe we can make it more free by distributing important info over the internet. Knock the lenses out of peoples rose colored glasses. Dal Timgar > [@swami](#): > > I want to ask our American dopers a question. Do you equate USA with the word freedom? Are the two ideas indistinguishable, like synonyms? This does seem to be is the clear impression that is coming from you. Examples: > > The national anthem - “home of the free”… > > To make **French** fries “more American” they change the words to “ **Freedom** Fries” > > more recently… > > [Iraqis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=250053) are fighting American troops because they hate freedom. > > Is this what Americans generally view themselves as? To outsiders, does this point of view bother you? Would you see it as somewhat simplistic and maybe arrogant? > > For me, well this is the one of the many things I find arrogant about some Americans, that some how they have cornered the freedom market. Another thing that bugs me is the whole extreme nationalism, it just smacks of arrogance. > > I have noticed that this attitude is extremely more prevalent among Americans who are **in** America, then with those who are not. In other words, I see it more often in Americans _when I travel to the US_, opposed to Americans _who are traveling FROM_ the US. > > Just a thought from a non-American, but close neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/25 "2004-04-09T19:39:22Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > That’s because the people saying this think we’re all a bunch of idiots. Actually, they just think that _enough_ of us are idiots that a significant percentage will believe it. Sadly, I don’t think they’re too far off. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@Agent\_Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Cooper)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/26 "2004-04-09T23:28:28Z")
speaking as an ameircan … when i say “the american way”, it is not about freedom and bravery … it is in reference to capitalism. not just ordinary capitalism, but capitalism to the point of cold pimpin’. capitalism, and pity the fool that gets in its way! ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/27 "2004-04-10T02:01:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **Agent Cooper** : speaking as an ameircan … when i say “the american way”, it is not about freedom and bravery … it is in reference to capitalism. not just ordinary capitalism, but capitalism to the point of cold pimpin’. capitalism, and pity the fool that gets in its way! Well, well, American Agent Cooper, too bad you weren’t around during the last Century, you could have told the two million American soilders before they died in the wars in which they were fighting , that they were not fighting for liberty and freedom, but instead they were fighting for "coldpimpin’ captalism. But of course you wouldn’t be able to say that today in English, because you would be speaking German, and so would the rest of the west, while the enslaved of the far east would be kneeling before the Japanese emperor, and a Stalinist Russia would rule their middle share of the remaining territories of the Earth. NO? Well then tell me kiddo, what great organization other than the United States would have then risen up and made the world safe for those who believe in liberty? Now here’s the scary part. What great organization will keep freedom alive in the new world today? The U.N.? May God help us all. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/28 "2004-04-10T02:53:43Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Well, well, American Agent Cooper, too bad you weren’t around during the last Century, you could have told the two million American soilders before they died in the wars in which they were fighting , that they were not fighting for liberty and freedom, but instead they were fighting for "coldpimpin’ captalism. But of course you wouldn’t be able to say that today in English, because you would be speaking German, and so would the rest of the west, while the enslaved of the far east would be kneeling before the Japanese emperor, and a Stalinist Russia would rule their middle share of the remaining territories of the Earth. > > NO? Well then tell me kiddo, what great organization other than the United States would have then risen up and made the world safe for those who believe in liberty? > > Now here’s the scary part. What great organization will keep freedom alive in the new world today? The U.N.? > > May God help us all. Considering the USA is currently sorely stressed with logistical and troop deployments in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I would suggest the USA is in no position to go about throwing too much weight around at the moment - not without making huge dents into her economic trading position. Funding such things isn’t cheap - even for the United States. The bills have to be paid somehow, and they’re ultimately paid by either slugging the ordinary American taxpayer or by reducing public funding to civil institutions. Nope, the bottom line is that it’s a global world now. The European Union, while not a sovereign country in it’s own right, is surely such a thing at an economic level - and all the statistics indicate the EU wins over the USA in terms of GDP and economic clout and influence. So Milum… you’re a proud American. That’s great. More power to ya… I’m a proud Australian too. Big deal. I don’t go out of my way to proclaim that Australia is the greatest country in all the world to live in (and there’d be more than few people who would argue that it’s true nowadays) - but if I did, wouldn’t it rankle you some? Wouldn’t it get up your nose a little bit? The arrogance, that is? The conceit I’d be showing? To go around shouting and jumping about what a great country Australia is? Certainly, without even doing such a thing, I know how tacky it would be - and THAT’s the rub, you see. It’s the lack of tact about screaming “USA NUMBER ONE” which rankles people, because quite frankly, when you add up all the things that count at the moment - namely, quality of life, employment opportunities, cost of living, lack of violence, quality education, lack of racial problems, lack of gun problems - well, the statistics show the USA long ago slipped from being Number One. Sure, she’s still in the Top 5, but not a clear Number One say like in Dwight Eisenhower’s era. Hence, the “Freedom = USA” spiel is kinda bit of a moot point in my opinion. That being said, I still love the United States. I have relatives there going back 3 generations or more. A great country. And a beautiful people. It’s just that some of them get a bit fuckin’ arrogant at times when they think they act on behalf of all the rest of us who have our shit together too. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/29 "2004-04-10T03:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > **Boo Boo Foo** : …That being said, I still love the United States. I have relatives there going back 3 generations or more. A great country. And a beautiful people. It’s just that some of them get a bit xxxxxxx’ arrogant at times when they think they act on behalf of all the rest of us who have our xxxx together too. Ahhh, too true\*\* Boo Boo Foo\*\*, you down under certainly have your act together, but what you term “arrogance” is in fact a silly form of \*\* envy\*\*. You Aussies have always been admired greatly by the good people of the United States. Together we share common traits born of independence and freedom. Our shared sense of destiny was somewhat diluted when you all traded a part of your rugged sense of self-destiny for the opium of paternalistic socialism. But what the hell, we still like Elton John, a product of your parent country-- England. But why,\*\* Boo Boo Foo\*\*, do you stoop to call us Americans arrogant? Does your sense of our manner mean more than the \*\*blood \*\*that we have shed to keep your country and all countries of this world free? The condition of freedom and liberty is rare in this world and those who hope for a better life for all mankind must unite and not quibble. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/30 "2004-04-10T03:49:27Z")
I think the whole freedom arrogance is a hold-over from the cold war. Back in the '60s and '70s the Commies were the bad guys, the “terrorists” of their time. Most people would agree communist states are far from being free. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/31 "2004-04-10T03:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Does your sense of our manner mean more than the blood that we have shed to keep your country and all countries of this world free? Milum, with all due respect, please do read up a little on the sacrifices of the Australians during WWII. Unless, of course, by “we” you mean not only Americans \*and \* Australians, but British, French and Russians. Sure, the USA provided man (and woman-) power, arms and much-needed supplies during wars to defeat fascism. However, John Wayne et. al. notwithstanding, they sure didn’t do it alone. ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/32 "2004-04-10T04:10:33Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > I don’t go out of my way to proclaim that Australia is the greatest country in all the world to live in (and there’d be more than few people who would argue that it’s true nowadays) - but if I did, wouldn’t it rankle you some? Wouldn’t it get up your nose a little bit? The arrogance, that is? The conceit I’d be showing? To go around shouting and jumping about what a great country Australia is? See, this is where I get confused. Why in the world would an American be offended if a citizen of another country proclaims loudly how wonderful his country is? It only seems natural to me that you would prefer Australia - after all, you live there! It doesn’t take anything away from my regard for my country. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/33 "2004-04-10T04:20:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Milum, with all due respect, please do read up a little on the sacrifices of the Australians during WWII. Unless, of course, by “we” you mean not only Americans and Australians, but British, French and Russians. > > Sure, the USA provided man xxxxx power, arms and much-needed supplies during wars to defeat fascism. However, John Wayne et. al. notwithstanding, they sure didn’t do it alone. Alone? Not “of course not”, but " hell no, of course not!" But please simply note that you are today free to offer discourse on the relative merits of the degrees of the contribution by virtue of the brave countries who resisted enslavement by tyrants. And it is my most sincere and deepest hope that you will be able to do so forever. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/34 "2004-04-10T04:34:41Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Our shared sense of destiny was somewhat diluted when you all traded a part of your rugged sense of self-destiny for the opium of paternalistic socialism. You dont understand Australians Milum. That “rugged sense of self-destiny” and self-reliance may be a big part of the American identity but the big theme of Australian identity is “mateship”. When life is tough you are there for your mates, you help him out and he will help you out, in war you dont abandon him on the battlefield, in peace you dont let his children go hungry. That’s your “paternalistic socialism”. A man who says to use our phrase “I’m all right Jack” and just looks after himself, well such a man is no mate at all. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/35 "2004-04-10T05:14:50Z")
**Eolbo** : > [@](#): > > You dont understand Australians Milum. That “rugged sense of self-destiny” and self-reliance may be a big part of the American identity but the big theme of Australian identity is “mateship”. When life is tough you are there for your mates, you help him out and he will help you out, in war you dont abandon him on the battlefield, in peace you dont let his children go hungry. That’s your “paternalistic socialism”. A man who says to use our phrase “I’m all right Jack” and just looks after himself, well such a man is no mate at all. My apologies, **Eolbo**. Please forgive my misunderstanding. My interpertation of the Aussie bent towards interdependence was based wrongly in my belief that all forms of socialism are shrouds that suppress the human spirit. I feel much better knowing that I was wrong. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/36 "2004-04-10T08:05:23Z")
I’ve never really understood the nationalistic sentiments in the US, and I grew up surrounded by them. Nor have I ever understood the country’s almost festish-like fixation with concepts such as freedom, liberty, etc. Take “freedom,” for example. What do you mean when you use the word “freedom?” Do you mean freedom _from_ something (for example, freedom from political oppression, or freedom from economic want)? Or do you mean freedom to _do_ something (like freedom to choose between 10 types of jeans, or to buy a yacht)? Freedom to choose from 13 channels of shit on the TV? Freedom from hunger? Freedom to start your own business? Freedom to succeed? Freedom to fail? Freedom to express your opinion? Freedom to spread lies and innuendo? Do some kinds of freedoms exclude others? “Liberty” and “equality” can be mutually exclusive categories; which do you choose? It seems to me that Americans never stop to ask themselves these questions, or really reflect on the answers. Instead, they just chant “freedom” as if it were an completely unproblematic concept, something everyone can agree upon as an indisputably good thing. American stands for “freedom,” and that’s all we do – we promote the spread of “freedom.” I grew up in the States, in the Bible Belt; did I grow up free? Well, only in formal sense. I was _technically_ free to express critical views. Technically, I could question the existence of God; but I paid a price for it. I was free to be a communist, to criticize “capitalism,” to espouse socialist alternatives, and so on – as long as I didn’t mind the line of football player and rednecks waiting after school to beat the living shit out of me. There were all sorts of informal constraints on the freedoms I was supposedly guaranteed in the Land of the Free. Now, they tell us, we invaded Iraq to grant them “freedom.” Yet, the current uprisings there began as a protest to the closure of Muqtada al-Sadr’s newspaper. And who ordered it closed? Why, the Americans, of course. So – if we are in Iraq to promote the spread of “freedom,” why we are clamping down on the “freedom of the press” there, one of those many freedoms that supposedly make America such a great place to live? We close Muqtada’s newspaper; he and his followers arrange for peaceful demonstrations. Over the course of a week, these demonstrations grow in size. How does the CPA respond? It arrests about 20 of al-Sadr’s lieutenants. Is this an example of the freedom we’ve come to spread in Iraq? **Hamlet** writes: > [@](#): > > _Freedom is, in most people’s eyes, a wonderful blessing. People have fought, and died, for freedom, not just in the United States, but all over this world. It is something a country should strive every day for. It is no surprise that freedom is so revered._ Naturally, I don’t exactly disagree with this statement; it’s just that I can’t imagine it being written by anyone other than an American. Say the word “freedom” and they go all weak-kneed and maudlin on you, and wax poetic about how fantastic it is. **Hamlet** assumes that when he deploys the word “freedom,” it will mean essentially the same thing to all of his readers. But I wonder. Might an American’s conception of “freedom” differ from a European’s, or an Iraqi’s? If so, whose version of “freedom” is the right one? Who gets to define what we mean with “freedom?” > [@](#): > > - I would guess that a majority of Americans would asset that America is one of the most free countries in the world, Yes. Our Constitution created a country founded on the idea of freedom for its people. And there are no few people who fight everyday when they feel those freedoms are being challenged.\* First, we have this phrase: “America is one of the _most free_ countries in the world.” Well, to me, its much more complex. I live abroad now (in Sweden); am I “less free” or “more free” here? I would answer: a bit of both. Here’s this other thing, as well; the rhetorical coupling of “freedom” and “the Constitution.” Perhaps **Hamlet** should review some of the Federalist papers before making such claims. > [@](#): > > \*\* Over ten years of storm and stress with a congress that was, as John Adams said, “only a diplomatic assembly,” had furnished the leaders of the revolution “with an instructive but afflicting lesson” in what happens when a number of self-centered communities are entangled in the same environment. _And so, when they went to Philadelphia in May of 1787, ostensibly to revise the Articles of Confederation, they were really in full reaction against the fundamental premise of Eighteenth Century democracy. Not only were the leaders consciously opposed to the democratic spirit of the time, feeling, as Madison said, that “democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention,” but within the national frontiers they were determined to offset as far as they could the ideal of self-governing communities in self-contained environments._ The collisions and failures of concave democracy, where men spontaneously managed all their own affairs, were before their eyes. _The problem as they saw it, was to restore government as against democracy._ They understood government to be the power to make national decisions and enforce them throughout the nation; democracy they believed was the insistence of localities and classes upon self-determination in accordance with their immediate interests and aims. > > …The Federalists argued for union, not for democracy, and even the word republic had an unpleasant sound to George Washington when he had been for more than two years a republican president. The constitution was a candid attempt to limit the sphere of popular rule; the only democratic organ it was intended the government should possess was the House, based on a suffrage highly limited by property qualifications. And even at that, the House, it was believed, would be so licentious a part of the government, that it was carefully checked and balanced by the Senate, the electoral college, the Presidential veto, and by judicial interpretation…. > > Jefferson actually reached the point of believing that the Federalists had perverted the Constitution, of which in his fancy they were no longer the authors. And so the Constitution was, in spirit, rewritten. Partly by actual amendment, partly by practice, as in the case of the electoral college, but chiefly by looking at it through another set of stereotypes, the facade was no longer permitted to look oligarchic. > > _The American people came to believe that their Constitution was a democratic instrument, and treated it as such. They owe that fiction to the victory of Thomas Jefferson, and a great conservative fiction it has been._ It is a fair guess that if everyone had always regarded the Constitution as did the authors of it, the Constitution would have been violently overthrown, because loyalty to the Constitution and loyalty to democracy would have seemed incompatible. Jefferson resolved that paradox by teaching the American people to read the Constitution as an expression of democracy. He himself stopped there. But in the course of twenty-five years or so social conditions had changed so radically, that Andrew Jackson carried out the political revolution for which Jefferson had prepared the tradition….\*\* > > Walter Lippmann, [_Public Opinion_](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy/Lipp_PubOpin_Patronage.html) **Hamlet** continues: > [@](#): > > _And speaking only for myself, I am damn proud of the Constitution, the judicial system, and the people of America that work every day to protect our freedoms. Call it arrogance if you like, but I think that is a tad simplistic on your part._ Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t call it arrogance. But I don’t know really what I _would_ call it. Why would someone be “proud” of the Constitution? I simply baffles me. In Sweden they also have a kind of constitution, although its called simply “_grundlagen_” (Fundamental/Constitutional Law). It outlines the basic structure of government and the rights of Swedish citizens. It guarantees all the freedoms that are guaranteed in the US Constitution, for example. A Swede would never say, “I’m damn proud of _grundlagen_.” The sentiment is completely alien to them. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/37 "2004-04-10T11:44:37Z")
Well its all about repeating a mantra a thousand times and it becomes true. America might have a lot of freedom and a lot of defects… but the notion of Land of the Free stuck and people repeat it. They just don’t figure it means No Freedom abroad for others… so foreigners hating “freedom” is a silly excuse for fighting others. Other countries perpetuate their own mythos. Brazil as an example has always repeated the “we are a peaceful and pacific people”. Our independence was RELATIVELY light on Bloodshed… but its portrayed as zero bloodshed. Revolutions and revolts are downplayed too. So even though we live in some cities areas with the equivalent of urban guerrila (criminals fighting police) the notion of a pacific people endures. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/38 "2004-04-10T19:21:03Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > I’ve never really understood the nationalistic sentiments in the US, and I grew up surrounded by them. Nor have I ever understood the country’s almost festish-like fixation with concepts such as freedom, liberty, etc. > > Take “freedom,” for example. What do you mean when you use the word “freedom?” Do you mean freedom _from_ something (for example, freedom from political oppression, or freedom from economic want)? Or do you mean freedom to _do_ something (like freedom to choose between 10 types of jeans, or to buy a yacht)? Freedom to choose from 13 channels of shit on the TV? Freedom from hunger? Freedom to start your own business? Freedom to succeed? Freedom to fail? Freedom to express your opinion? Freedom to spread lies and innuendo? Do some kinds of freedoms exclude others? “Liberty” and “equality” can be mutually exclusive categories; which do you choose? All that to say “freedom” is difficult to define? That many sentences to play semantics? Great. Rather than spending pages and pages stating, refining, and limiting the definition of “freedom”, I’ll just go ahead and use whatever definition you choose. Just let me know. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > It seems to me that Americans never stop to ask themselves these questions, or really reflect on the answers. Instead, they just chant “freedom” as if it were an completely unproblematic concept, something everyone can agree upon as an indisputably good thing. American stands for “freedom,” and that’s all we do – we promote the spread of “freedom.” I would wholeheartedly agree that a majority of Americans do not spend much time thinking about the precise definition and limits of the term freedom. And I would wholeheartedly agree that it is annoying as hell that our current President wraps everything he does, from lying to the American Public and the UN to invade Iraq to endorsing questionable legislation, in the rhetoric of freedom. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > I grew up in the States, in the Bible Belt; did I grow up free? Well, only in formal sense. I was _technically_ free to express critical views. Technically, I could question the existence of God; but I paid a price for it. I was free to be a communist, to criticize “capitalism,” to espouse socialist alternatives, and so on – as long as I didn’t mind the line of football player and rednecks waiting after school to beat the living shit out of me. There were all sorts of informal constraints on the freedoms I was supposedly guaranteed in the Land of the Free. Sorry for your traumatic teenage years. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Naturally, I don’t exactly disagree with this statement; it’s just that I can’t imagine it being written by anyone other than an American. Say the word “freedom” and they go all weak-kneed and maudlin on you, and wax poetic about how fantastic it is. Maybe you and I can go be weak-kneed and maudlin together, since you agree with my statement. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Hamlet** assumes that when he deploys the word “freedom,” it will mean essentially the same thing to all of his readers. But I wonder. Might an American’s conception of “freedom” differ from a European’s, or an Iraqi’s? If so, whose version of “freedom” is the right one? Who gets to define what we mean with “freedom?”First, we have this phrase: “America is one of the _most free_ countries in the world.” Well, to me, its much more complex. I live abroad now (in Sweden); am I “less free” or “more free” here? I would answer: a bit of both. Yep. Got it the first time. Freedom is a difficult concept to define. Not only does the concept change from country to country, but also person to person. Not all European’s have the same conception of freedom. Nor all Iraqi’s. Nor all Americans. Freedom is a complex subject, with many different facets. Perhaps I should have started out with Lord Acton’s definition of liberty: “By liberty I mean the assurance that every man shall be protected in doing what he believes his duty, against the influence of authority and majorities, custom and opinion.” Then I could have reflected back on Aristotle’s, meld it with Frederick Douglas’ thoughts on freedom and then put it all in book form. I just didn’t think it was necessary to do that before I posted about 300 words on a message board. My apologies. > [@Mr.Svinlensa](#): > > Here’s this other thing, as well; the rhetorical coupling of “freedom” and “the Constitution.” Perhaps **Hamlet** should review some of the Federalist papers before making such claims. Gee, thanks for that insightful discussion from Mr. Lippman. I had no idea democracy and freedom were synonyms. See, it must be that difficulty in defining that term again, because your excerpt seems to stand for the proposition that the United State’s isn’t perfectly democratic. Great point, and I agree with it. I’m not sold on the relevance to this discussion, but it was a good read. Were I you, I would have gone with this quote from the Federalist papers > [@](#): > > **On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.** From Federalist #1, written by Hamilton. You see, this quote is more appropriate to a discussion of freedom and the Constitution. It deals with the duties of a government to protect liberty, but also the possible abuse of the people’s freedom by a government that pays merely lipservice to it. Or, were I you, I may have gone with Federalist #85, again by Hamilton, and quote the following. > [@](#): > > \*\*Among the pretended defects are the re-eligibility of the Executive, the want of a council, the omission of a formal bill of rights, the omission of a provision respecting the liberty of the press. These and several others which have been noted in the course of our inquiries are as much chargeable on the existing constitution of this State, as on the one proposed for the Union; and a man must have slender pretensions to consistency, who can rail at the latter for imperfections which he finds no difficulty in excusing in the former. Nor indeed can there be a better proof of the insincerity and affectation of some of the zealous adversaries of the plan of the convention among us, who profess to be the devoted admirers of the government under which they live, than the fury with which they have attacked that plan, for matters in regard to which our own constitution is equally or perhaps more vulnerable. > > The additional securities to republican government, to liberty and to property, to be derived from the adoption of the plan under consideration, consist chiefly in the restraints which the preservation of the Union will impose on local factions and insurrections, and on the ambition of powerful individuals in single States, who may acquire credit and influence enough, from leaders and favorites, to become the despots of the people; in the diminution of the opportunities to foreign intrigue, which the dissolution of the Confederacy would invite and facilitate; in the prevention of extensive military establishments, which could not fail to grow out of wars between the States in a disunited situation; in the express guaranty of a republican form of government to each; in the absolute and universal exclusion of titles of nobility; and in the precautions against the repetition of those practices on the part of the State governments which have undermined the foundations of property and credit, have planted mutual distrust in the breasts of all classes of citizens, and have occasioned an almost universal prostration of morals.\*\* This quote, much more than you democracy/freeedom misadventure, deals with the fear many States, and individuals, had with enacting the Constitution without the guarantees of the Bill of Rights. Then, again, were I you, I would have pointed out that a majority of the freedoms (again, not democracy) of the Constitution were found in the Bill of Rights and not the Consitution proper. Again, it would be much more apropos of a discussion of freedom as opposed to democracy. Not that I feel I need to tell you how you should backhandedly mock me. You do fine by yourself. > [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Hamlet** continues:Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t call it arrogance. But I don’t know really what I _would_ call it. Why would someone be “proud” of the Constitution? I simply baffles me. In Sweden they also have a kind of constitution, although its called simply “_grundlagen_” (Fundamental/Constitutional Law). It outlines the basic structure of government and the rights of Swedish citizens. It guarantees all the freedoms that are guaranteed in the US Constitution, for example. > > A Swede would never say, “I’m damn proud of _grundlagen_.” The sentiment is completely alien to them. As a quick aside, it appears from [here](http://www.lszda.lv/petijumi/issp_1995_2_codebook_main.htm#v31) that 792 of roughly 1300 are proud of the way democracy works in Sweden. As we learned earlier, or I hope we learned earlier, democracy and freedom are not synonyms. But I do believe that many Swedes take pride in their democracy. And I’m not sure how I could explain my pride in the Consitution to you further. I am proud of the Constitution. I agree with Washington who said: “”[The Constitution] … is provided with more checks and barriers against the introduction of tyranny, and those of a nature less liable to be surmounted, than any government hitherto instituted among mortals hath possessed." I think the Consitution changed the world for the better. I think it has been, and remains, the template for many countries considering their own Consitutions. The Constitution is not flawless. Again, as Washington stated: “”“[t]he warmest friends and the best supporters the Constitution has do not contend that it is free from imperfections." However, I am proud of the Constitution and what it stands for. That does, however, not make me a nationalistic, flag-waving psycho. But I am able to see, and take pride in, the freedoms incorporated in, and protected by, the Consitution. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/39 "2004-04-10T19:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > I want to ask our American dopers a question. Do you equate USA with the word freedom? Are the two ideas indistinguishable, like synonyms? This does seem to be is the clear impression that is coming from you. Examples: > > The national anthem - “home of the free”… The national anthems of other countries, by contrast, are entirely free of hype and hyperbole. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Cooper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@Agent\_Cooper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Cooper)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/40 "2004-04-10T21:04:06Z")
Milum, my point, restated… is that while Freedom is nice, in America it historically takes a backseat to Profitability and/or Religion. Freedom is NOT the highest value in this land. Greed is. Power is. (Just like the rest of the world.) If Freedom was tops, we wouldn’t have had to have so many civil rights movements (continuing today with gays), and our govt would not be run like a cold hearted business. On days when I’m feeling _really_ cynical, I might even suggest our involvement in WWII had as much to do with satisfying American business pressures as it did with securing the freedom of Europe (sound familiar, Iraq?). Not to say that singing freedom while they fought wasn’t inspiring. Purely opinion of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177.md?page=3)