# Freedom = USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177 "2004-04-09T14:29:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/41 "2004-04-10T21:34:11Z")
**Hamlet** : Please don’t take offense at my “weak-kneed and maudlin” comment. I didn’t mean to imply that you were “weak-kneed” or “maudlin,” I just meant that I often personally experience American pronouncements regarding “freedom” as something like that. It’s a kind of emotional valence that infects the entire public discourse on the issue. > [@](#): > > _Sorry for your traumatic teenage years._ Buddy, you don’t know the half of it. > [@](#): > > - Maybe you and I can go be weak-kneed and maudlin together, since you agree with my statement.\* I do, actually, agree with your statement. But I probably wouldn’t have stated it quite in the same way; I guess, in part, because it seems so self-evident. Is it not? > [@](#): > > _Perhaps I should have started out with Lord Acton’s definition of liberty: “By liberty I mean the assurance that every man shall be protected in doing what he believes his duty, against the influence of authority and majorities, custom and opinion.” Then I could have reflected back on Aristotle’s, meld it with Frederick Douglas’ thoughts on freedom and then put it all in book form. I just didn’t think it was necessary to do that before I posted about 300 words on a message board. My apologies._ Not at all. I just used what you posted as a handy example. Obviously you have a deeper grasp of the issue than those 300 words; but it’s telling to me that when you want to distill what you feel to be most important about freedom into a short post, you fall back on cliches about how you’re “proud of Americans who fight for freedom,” and so forth. I don’t mean this as a personal criticism, by the way, it’s just an observation. There is something, I don’t know, “fetish-like” about these very “American” sorts of pronouncements, at least from an outsider’s perspective. (I realize that might sound critical as well; I’m trying, probably unsuccessfully, to communicate something here.) > [@](#): > > - Gee, thanks for that insightful discussion from Mr. Lippman. I had no idea democracy and freedom were synonyms. See, it must be that difficulty in defining that term again, because your excerpt seems to stand for the proposition that the United State’s isn’t perfectly democratic. Great point, and I agree with it. I’m not sold on the relevance to this discussion, but it was a good read.\* Well, point taken. But most people _do_ equate democracy with political freedom. A democracy is not absolutely free, but it’s “freer” than most other forms of government, or so they say. Saddam Hussein was a dictator, and the people of Iraq “groaned” under him, yearning to be free. And so on. _You_ pointed out that the Constitution guaranteed our freedoms, creating a “country founded on the idea of freedom for its people.” Actually (as note below, as well), the Constitution simply lays out our governmental architecture, and as far as that goes, seems designed to limit, rather than expand, on local freedoms/democracies. > [@](#): > > - This quote, much more than you democracy/freeedom misadventure, deals with the fear many States, and individuals, had with enacting the Constitution without the guarantees of the Bill of Rights. Then, again, were I you, I would have pointed out that a majority of the freedoms (again, not democracy) of the Constitution were found in the Bill of Rights and not the Constitution proper.\* Indeed, that fact occurred to me not more than two minutes before reading the above. > [@](#): > > _Again, it would be much more apropos of a discussion of freedom as opposed to democracy. Not that I feel I need to tell you how you should backhandedly mock me. You do fine by yourself._ I apologize. It was not my intention to mock you at all. > [@](#): > > - As a quick aside, it appears from here that 792 of roughly 1300 are proud of the way democracy works in Sweden. As we learned earlier, or I hope we learned earlier, democracy and freedom are not synonyms. But I do believe that many Swedes take pride in their democracy.\* First off, I’m impressed by your googling skills. And what an interesting study. Some of the answers speak volumes. Secondly, sure, if pressed, a Swede might say…nyahhh, I don’t know. He/she might check the box “somewhat proud” in answer to the question, “Are you proud of the way democracy works in Sweden?” In fact, _democracy_ is a very important value in Sweden. But I still argue they wouldn’t go round waving flags and saying, “I’m proud of our Grundlag.” Pride in the Constitution is sentiment exclusive, or very nearly exclusive, to Americans. > [@](#): > > - And I’m not sure how I could explain my pride in the Consitution to you further. I am proud of the Constitution. I agree with Washington who said: “”[The Constitution] … is provided with more checks and barriers against the introduction of tyranny, and those of a nature less liable to be surmounted, than any government hitherto instituted among mortals hath possessed."\* I guess I just don’t understand why this very good thing, for which a person might be reasonably grateful, also inspires the emotion of pride. I fully respect you feeling that way, but I honestly don’t understand it, even having grown up over there. Maybe those rednecks just hit me in the head one time too often? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/42 "2004-04-10T22:15:11Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Hamlet** : > > Please don’t take offense at my “weak-kneed and maudlin” comment. I didn’t mean to imply that you were “weak-kneed” or “maudlin,” I just meant that I often personally experience American pronouncements regarding “freedom” as something like that. It’s a kind of emotional valence that infects the entire public discourse on the issue. You aren’t kidding. If I ever meet Lee Greenwood (Of, “I’m proud to be an American” fame) in a dark alley, I know only one of us is coming out of that alley alive. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Buddy, you don’t know the half of it. As my junior high chess champ and a pronounced “mathlete”, I may have a slight understanding. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > I do, actually, agree with your statement. But I probably wouldn’t have stated it quite in the same way; I guess, in part, because it seems so self-evident. Is it not? To rationale people, it was not only self-evident, but also a bit emotional. But rationale people are not always the target for these threads. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Not at all. I just used what you posted as a handy example. Obviously you have a deeper grasp of the issue than those 300 words; but it’s telling to me that when you want to distill what you feel to be most important about freedom into a short post, you fall back on cliches about how you’re “proud of Americans who fight for freedom,” and so forth. I don’t mean this as a personal criticism, by the way, it’s just an observation. There is something, I don’t know, “fetish-like” about these very “American” sorts of pronouncements, at least from an outsider’s perspective. (I realize that might sound critical as well; I’m trying, probably unsuccessfully, to communicate something here.) While some truths cannot help to become cliche, I can see your point. Except the majority of my post was an attempt to extend the concept of freedom to all nations and people, not solely "Merkins. My point was that a majority of countries have rhetoric and individualized statements about their freedoms. Granted America has more, and more cliche, ways of stating them, (just look at **Milum** ), but that doesn’t change the fact that almost all countries wish to and work to, be known as free. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Well, point taken. But most people _do_ equate democracy with political freedom. A democracy is not absolutely free, but it’s “freer” than most other forms of government, or so they say. Saddam Hussein was a dictator, and the people of Iraq “groaned” under him, yearning to be free. And so on. I’ll go out on a limb and state that yes, America is more “free” than Iraq under Saddam Hussein. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > _You_ pointed out that the Constitution guaranteed our freedoms, creating a “country founded on the idea of freedom for its people.” Actually (as note below, as well), the Constitution simply lays out our governmental architecture, and as far as that goes, seems designed to limit, rather than expand, on local freedoms/democracies. While a great majority of the Constitution deals with the logistics of creating a country, to say that “freedom” of the people was not a concern would be false. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. And if you look at the statements of Washington, he seemed convinced the Constitution had adequate protections for freedom. In addition, Hamilton made a point of mocking the anti-federalists who were against ratification of the Constitution without the Bill of Rights included. His point was that many of the State’s themselves did not have enumerated rights in their “constitutions”, and complaining that the Union Constitution did not was tantamount to ignoring the log in their own eye. > [@MrSvinlesha](#): > > Secondly, sure, if pressed, a Swede might say…nyahhh, I don’t know. He/she might check the box “somewhat proud” in answer to the question, “Are you proud of the way democracy works in Sweden?” As an aside, I always do my best to lie to pollsters. In fact, according to one poll, I am one of the 3% of Americans who believe Welles’ “War of the Worlds” actually happened. > [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > In fact, _democracy_ is a very important value in Sweden. But I still argue they wouldn’t go round waving flags and saying, “I’m proud of our Grundlag.” Pride in the Constitution is sentiment exclusive, or very nearly exclusive, to Americans. Well, of course. You guys just copied off of ours, so what’s to be proud of. 🙂 > [@MrSvinlesha](#): > > I guess I just don’t understand why this very good thing, for which a person might be reasonably grateful, also inspires the emotion of pride. I fully respect you feeling that way, but I honestly don’t understand it, even having grown up over there. In part, it is a product of living in America. I’d agree, by and large, that the U.S. is the loudest, most in-your-face braggarts in the world. However, on a personal level, I guess the pride has to do with the identification with the people who have created and work for, the Constitution. Just as I’m sure some of your countrymen are proud of the Swedish National Football Team when (if?) they do well stems from a small amount of identification with the players, so I too am proud of our Constitution and judiciary. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/43 "2004-04-13T16:39:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Milum_ > Does your sense of our manner mean more than the blood that we have shed to keep your country and all countries of this world free? I don’t want to get into a shitfight about what country has done most to preserve and promote freedom worldwide. But I can’t let this sort of remark go by without reminding you that in WWI, while you were sitting on your hands wondering if you’d be better off maintaining your isolationism, Australians were getting slaughtered in Europe. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by SimonX_ > While not all thing that equal liberty are American, without liberty, something’s not American. I find this an odd sentiment. Unfortunately, slavery was American. The country that has kept two Australians locked up at Camp X-Ray, without charge, for over a year now is American. I respect and value America’s commitment to liberty, but, unfortunately, there are many American things devoid of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/44 "2004-04-13T19:27:37Z")
I think the “freedom fetish” in US is inherited from the British, who inherited it from the Saxons. We are talking about thousands of years of ideological obsession, having very liitle to do with reality. In practical terms, US is not a “land of the free” by any measure; it is a land of “law and order”. There were more individual freedoms in Soviet Union than there are in US (and a lot less “law and order”). The everyday lives of common Americans are subject to unbelievable number of petty rules and restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/45 "2004-04-13T19:58:40Z")
> [@gex gex](#): > > I don’t want to get into a shitfight about what country has done most to preserve and promote freedom worldwide. But I can’t let this sort of remark go by without reminding you that in WWI, while you were sitting on your hands wondering if you’d be better off maintaining your isolationism, Australians were getting slaughtered in Europe. Not in any way to take **Milum** ’s side, Australians were not dying for freedom in WWI. You were pawns in territorial disputes between the Triple Entente (your side) and the Triple Alliance in a war that could have been avoided. > [@](#): > > I find this an odd sentiment. Unfortunately, slavery was American. The country that has kept two Australians locked up at Camp X-Ray, without charge, for over a year now is American. I respect and value America’s commitment to liberty, but, unfortunately, there are many American things devoid of liberty. Given the Australian legacy of racism, you don’t have a lot of room to point fingers at us. And if David Hicks is innocent, why was he fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan? Was he lost from a holiday tour of Kabul, perhaps? And do you think Mamdouh Habib was taken off that bus in Karachi for no reason? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/46 "2004-04-13T20:43:32Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The everyday lives of common Americans are subject to unbelievable number of petty rules and restrictions. Such as? As others have touched on, the interaction between democracy and freedom is an interesting one for several reasons: (a) the well-known “tyranny of the majority” issue. In a pure democracy, 51% of the population can enact any law that they like, and laws (almost by definition) restrict freedom (b) a respect for democracy doesn’t necessarily equate with a love of freedom, at least for some types of freedom. In an extremely religious society, for instance, a democractic government might severely limit freedom ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/47 "2004-04-13T20:56:24Z")
From the OP: > [@swami](#): > > [snip] > > Another thing that bugs me is the whole extreme nationalism, it just smacks of arrogance. > > [snip] > > Just a thought from a non-American, but close neighbor. [This close?](http://www.ussoccerplayers.com/exclusives/409527.html) Yeah, that extreme nationalism is quite the beotch. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/48 "2004-04-13T20:56:28Z")
**H.L. Mencken** : “Free inquiry cannot flourish among idiotic certainties of ignorant men” ## **New Iskander** : In practical terms, US is not a “land of the free” by any measure; it is a land of “law and order”. There were more individual freedoms in Soviet Union than there are in US (and a lot less “law and order”). The everyday lives of common Americans are subject to unbelievable number of petty rules and restrictions. **gex gex** : …in WWI, while you (the people of the United States) were sitting on your hands wondering if you’d be better off maintaining your isolationism, Australians were getting slaughtered in Europe. **Milum** : So? Can’t a woman have time to make up her mind? **gex gex** : …Unfortunately, slavery was American. The country that has kept two Australians locked up at Camp X-Ray, without charge, for over a year now is American… **Milum** : Please **gex** , slavery was not for just Americans, slavery was widespread enought back then for almost all countries to share in the guilt trip and belated regrets of today. And further; we Americians are not crass money-grubbing capitalists, we are not charging the two Australians for their room and board at camp X-Ray. But understand, we are at war with Global Terrorism and as such we will take no chances with those who have aided in the killing of our people. Would you? Even so we have invited the Aussies and the damn U.N. to monitor our treatment of these two gentlemen and to review our evidence of their complicity in abetting terrorisitic acts that exists against these two Australian bastards of whom you have voiced your concern. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/49 "2004-04-13T22:10:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Such as? Such as paying taxes, avoiding lawsuits, placating neighbours, picking up after your pets, etc, etc, etc… In Soviet Union one didn’t have to worry about taxes (as the gov. was the sole employer), didn’t have to worry about lawsuits (because court system was a joke) and if your neighbour demanded that you restrain your kids or pets, you could settle the matter right then and there without any further repercussions. Such is real freedom: brutal, obnoxious and very dirty. If you are going to say that common sense rules and regulations are good, useful and distinguish humans from beasts, I’ll say, “Absolutely, but they are not freedom.” ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/50 "2004-04-13T22:14:47Z")
Agent Cooper: > [@](#): > > On days when I’m feeling _really_ cynical, I might even suggest our involvement in WWII had as much to do with satisfying American business pressures as it did with securing the freedom of Europe I wouldn’t go that far, but you might go so far as to say the US fought WWII for revenge. At any rate, it’s ironic that we didn’t join in the fight for freedpom until we came to believe that our own selfish interests were at stake–and yet we were wrong. **Milum** , spare us that “we’d all be speaking German” bullshit. Not was that an overreaction to Agent Cooper’ post, but the Nazis had no intention of invading the US, as has been made clear plenty of times on this board. > [@](#): > > …and the damn U.N… Nope, no arrogance here. :rolleyes: Ultimately we fought WWII to establish the UN. Even before Germany’s defeat, General Eisenhower had taked to referring the Allied forces as “the United Nations”. (and who deserves a fair amount of the blame for the failure of the League of Nations?) To toss a relevant concept into the fray: I’m starting to wonder how many people understand the concept of Rule of Law. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/51 "2004-04-14T00:08:43Z")
Nothing terribly constructive to add, other than to ditto that this whole “they hate freedom” thing is (to me) an Orwellian doublespeak non sequitur phrase cynically used (most noticably by the current administration) to bait the (honest, god-fearing) trailer trash into swallowing their bucket o’ lies. I wish that people would pay more attention to the flags draped over the coffins of our soldiers than the ones the administration is waving so frantically to divert our attention from their (you pick) a.)malfeasances b.)incompetencies. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/52 "2004-04-14T09:41:26Z")
Damn. Almost a record. Fifty posts in Great Debates without a Bush Bashing. You blew it, **An Arky**. A thread entitled **Mass Extinction at the KT Boundary: Asteroid or Just Plain Bad Luck** actually went fifty-one posts before blaming Bush. And for all you jive-schoolers out there who think that saying “fuck” and “doing your own thing” constitutes “freedom”, here’s a test… Publicly accuse the leader of your country of murder, lying, and corruption. The next day look in the mirror. If your head is still on your shoulders you are living in a land of the free. Ten million Democrats, many of whom post on the \*\*Straight Dope Message Board \*\*, should thank their lucky stars ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/53 "2004-04-14T11:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I wish that people would pay more attention to the flags draped over the coffins of our soldiers than the ones the administration is waving so frantically to divert our attention from their (you pick) a.)malfeasances b.)incompetencies. They are not coffins; they are transport tubes. And they do not come draped with flags because the DoD ordered that they be brought home as inconspicuously as possible so as to avoid embarrassing our fearless leader who, (as of a month ago, and, as far as I know, still), has never bothered to go greet any of the returning deceased. * * * As to the OP: the PR that the U.S. is the defender of Freedom originated during WWII when it could certainly be said that we _were_ defending Freedom (although hardly alone) and was then made a strong theme during the propaganda of the Cold War when we contrasted our “defense of freedom” with the “enslavement of the communists” (which, bearing a kernel of truth in Europe, of course, provided many counter examples in Asia, Africa and the Americas). Since most of the people voting and paying taxes in the U.S. grew up hearing the appeal to freedom as an American ideal, it was a handy and familiar tag for the current administration to use for _its_ propaganda in _this_ war. (Particularly since the key players in this administration were intending to launch this war since before Bush entered office–they needed a theme.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/54 "2004-04-14T12:59:47Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Publicly accuse the leader of your country of murder, lying, and corruption. > The next day look in the mirror. > If your head is still on your shoulders you are living in a land of the free. That’s it? That’s your yardstick of freedom? “Shut up, it could be worse” sounds like something that could have been muttered in the Gulag. So if GW taps your phone, or imprisons you without charges or counsel, or steals from your children’s future so his buddies can reap a tax cut windfall, you are still free? So long as he doesn’t kill you when you bitch about your chains, you call that freedom? Wake up Milum, your freedom is in as much jeopardy as the rest of us! How can you feel free just because Bush & Co. haven’t busted down your door and lopped off your head? Freedom is about more than simply being allowed to wake one more day. It troubles me that you don’t cherish it enough to demand its full measure from your government. Taking only what they give you giving isn’t enough; it is the duty of every free American to decry injustice and cast off the shackles of oppression, especially when they are wrought by one’s own leaders. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/55 "2004-04-14T14:02:12Z")
Holy crap, I’m late for Jive School! Professor Hepcat is gonna flip! ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/56 "2004-04-14T16:33:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by gobear_ > Not in any way to take Milum’s side, Australians were not dying for freedom in WWI. You were pawns in territorial disputes between the Triple Entente (your side) and the Triple Alliance in a war that could have been avoided. Hm. Well. Yeah… But don’t you know how war works? We’re fighting for freedom! They’re fighting cuz they hate freedom! 😛 > [@](#): > > Given the Australian legacy of racism, you don’t have a lot of room to point fingers at us. Absolutely. I was not claiming Australia to be free of sin; we certainly have shameful moments in our history. I was pointing out that it is not accurate to say “without liberty, something’s not American.” Quite clearly, America has been and still is associated with things devoid of liberty. Nowhere did I suggest that my country is perfect. > [@](#): > > And if David Hicks is innocent, why was he fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan? Was he lost from a holiday tour of Kabul, perhaps? And do you think Mamdouh Habib was taken off that bus in Karachi for no reason? Innocence is presumed. You know that. If the two of them are so guilty, you should be able to prove that in a fair trial (rather than the current farce that even Hicks’ Pentagon-appointed lawyer is disgusted with). You know, a speedy trial and all that. And you shouldn’t have to stick them in some place where you can avoid giving them proper rights. Besides, though hanging around with the Taliban is pretty stupid and reprehensible, it’s not necessarily terrorism. I’m not a fan of Hicks or Habib. But give them a proper trial rather than disappearing them on some island for years. A country with respect for liberty would do that. And, before you point it out, I know that my country’s government is complicit in their imprisonment. I include Australia as well as America in my criticism. **milum** , I feel I’ve responded to your post in responding to gobear’s. If I’ve missed anything, feel free to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/57 "2004-04-14T17:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Innocence is presumed. You know that. If the two of them are so guilty, you should be able to prove that in a fair trial (rather than the current farce that even Hicks’ Pentagon-appointed lawyer is disgusted with). You know, a speedy trial and all that. And you shouldn’t have to stick them in some place where you can avoid giving them proper rights. Fair enough. You make good points. > [@](#): > > Besides, though hanging around with the Taliban is pretty stupid and reprehensible, it’s not necessarily terrorism. They were doing far more than that. Hicks was fighting aont heir side and Habib has ties to Al Qaeda. They are Bad Guys, not innocent victims of a frame-up. > [@](#): > > I’m not a fan of Hicks or Habib. But give them a proper trial rather than disappearing them on some island for years. A country with respect for liberty would do that. You’re absolutely right. The people being held on Guantanamo are a disgrace to US pretensions to the higher moral ground in this conflict. There’s been enough time to try the prisoners and then imprison or repatriate them. The idea of an American gulag should disgust any true American. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177/58 "2004-04-14T17:57:17Z")
Yeah, even my Dad, a Republican for nearly forty years (although more an liberal, Nelson Rockefeller-style NYC one) is pretty mad about Guatanamo Bay. So far he’s not changing his vote because he finds Kerry a distillation of every Democrat policy he has trouble with. I think the problem is that, when you walk into the voting booth, you don’t get to vote for Kerry 30% and Bush 70% or whatever. I’m pro-life and therefore will not pull the lever for Kerry with a totally untroubled conscience. But the vote will be counted the same as one of his strongest supporters’ would. That’s just how it is. Anyway, to get back to the OP: I maintain that America is one of the few nations founded on an idea that has grown organically and been debated and shaped by generations of people. Communism and such were imposed and society was molded to fit them. Of course the idea, which can be summed up simplistically as ‘freedom’ is going to be important, and of course it’s going to be the first thing we’re going to say about ourselves. It also is something all of our hugely varied ethnic groups can agree on, and has let us all work together to a degree that most other societies can only envy. No matter what nation they come from, some democratic, some far from it, each and every person who becomes a citizen here MUST swear an oath to this ideal. It’s not perfect and its parameters are always being reshaped but it’s always there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freedom-usa/239177.md?page=2)