# Freeman on the Land - opting out of society **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203 "2010-06-06T22:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Libre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85e7bf/32.png) [@Libre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Libre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/1 "2010-06-06T22:14:18Z")
I’ve searched the Straight Dope to see if this has been covered, but I can’t seem to locate anything. I’m very interested in personal freedom and the possibity of “opting out” of society using the laws and statutes themselves. According to several websites, this can be accomplished legally. This seems to be a rapidly growing movement across the US, Canada, Australia and the UK. In describing the methods, they stress various concepts such as the difference between laws and statutes as well as the difference between something being “illegal” vs. “unlawful” when being stopped by a police officer for, say, a traffic violation. I am not asking for legal advice, but I’m wondering if any of our legal types can point out any glaringly obvious problems with the concept: > **[Fmotl.com](http://www.fmotl.com)** > > The domain name Fmotl.com is for sale. Call BuyDomains at 844-896-7299 to get a price quote and get your business online today! Go to YouTube and type in “Free Man On the Land” and you will get a number of videos on this topic, some even showing footage of people being stopped by police and using the techniques. It’s interesting viewing. Thanks! ~Libre ---
**Author:** ![Libre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85e7bf/32.png) [@Libre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Libre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/2 "2010-06-06T22:16:34Z")
There is also [http://thinkfree.ca](http://thinkfree.ca) and [http://worldfreemansociety.org](http://worldfreemansociety.org) ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/3 "2010-06-06T22:25:41Z")
I’m not gonna bother digging any deeper than skimming the first page of that last link. Nutjobs. Similar to survivalists, tax protesters, militia groups, the like. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/4 "2010-06-06T22:57:40Z")
So if one doesn’t care to watch You Tube videos, would you briefly summarize this school of thought as meaning that laws don’t apply to a person unless they want them to; that my personal rights are different depending on the capitalization of my name (i.e., Ravenman instead of RAVENMAN); and that the gold fringes on flags in courtrooms mean that judges can’t convict you of crimes? Srlsy? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/5 "2010-06-06T23:07:41Z")
From the link > [@](#): > > 1. “I feel ‘guilty’, because I owe the money”. No, you don’t owe a damn thing! When taking out the loan, you were ‘loaned’ back what was yours in the first place. You created the ‘money’ when you signed the Loan or Credit Application. By doing so, YOU gave THEM a Negotiable Instrument called ‘the money’. They cashed this in(\*), and then used that to loan you back your own money. You don’t owe a damn thing! THEY owe YOU - an apology at the very least - for applying this confidence trick on you - AND FOR CHASING YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY GAVE THEM. It goes on like that. If the linked page is in fact representative of Freeman, then the concept as fundamentally unsound, has no legal basis, but is strangely entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/6 "2010-06-06T23:09:27Z")
So… If I buy a car, the bank owes _me_ money? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/7 "2010-06-06T23:13:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So… If I buy a car, the bank owes _me_ money? 😕 The bank never actually deals with _you_. (As **RavenMan** predicted) the bank only deals with a fictitious legal entity that has your name in CAPITALS. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/8 "2010-06-06T23:14:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The law can give rise to a FICTION, but a fiction cannot give rise to a law. Consequently a legal fiction called THE GOVERNMENT has no power to make LAW. It is, in point of fact, BOUND BY LAW (like everyone else, and including all other legal fictions). PARLIAMENT is another legal fiction entity. Statutes created by Parliament are not, therefore, the LAW. They are ‘legislated rules for a society’ and ONLY APPLICABLE TO MEMBERS OF THAT SOCIETY. Join a different society, and you would be bound by a different set of rules. (If this were not the case it would be impossible to become, for example, a Freemason and be bound by the rules of Freemasonry). Statutes are nothing more than the Company Policy of THE UNITED KINGDOM CORPORATION, or THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CORPORATION, etc. The idea is that, apparently, since no single individual has the right to legislate, no collection of individuals has this right, either. This is widely regarded, for reasons I won’t get into, to be false. From here, it gets even more false, as others have shown. ETA: Very little before this point is true, either. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/9 "2010-06-06T23:46:08Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > The bank never actually deals with _you_. (As **RavenMan** predicted) the bank only deals with a fictitious legal entity that has your name in CAPITALS. The paperwork for a bank loan I took out (and subsequently paid off) many years ago had my name on it spelt “Normally”- ie, with the first letters capitalised and everything else in lower case. Not that it should make any difference, as anyone who learnt to read/write in Primary School should know. I have to say that I’m not aware of a particular rise in this “Freeman” movement in Australia, but it’s a _huge_ country with a lot of empty space and its own share of people with wacky ideas (many of whom have internet access and thus get addendums to their wacky ideas from the US and UK). ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/10 "2010-06-06T23:46:41Z")
Wow. Those sites are insane. I spent a little time in the forums and almost every single thread is “Hey guys, this cop gave me this ticket and I didn’t pay it, and now they’re saying they’re going to seize my property! Isn’t that illegal?” or “So I got arrested and fined again. What should I do now?” > [@RadicalPi](#): > > since no single individual has the right to legislate, no collection of individuals has this right, either. This is widely regarded, for reasons I won’t get into, to be false. I should point out that this is a common topic of debate in political philosophy. There’s lots of opinions out there about how governments derive their rights and how much loyalty the populace owes to the sovereign, as debated in classics like Hobbes’s Leviathan and Locke’s Treatise on Government. That’s in no way a defense of the “Freemen” (aka “criminals”) but I thought it was interesting to note. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/11 "2010-06-06T23:52:18Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > spelt “Normally”- ie, with the first letters capitalised and everything else in lower case. [Title Case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_case#Choice_of_case_in_text): > [@](#): > > Title case — All words are capitalized, except for non-initial articles, short prepositions[citation needed], and some other short words, e.g., The War of the Worlds ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/12 "2010-06-06T23:57:16Z")
Who says that threads on lunatic fringe subjects can’t also have a worthy educational component to them as well? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/13 "2010-06-07T00:08:14Z")
> [@Libre](#): > > There is also [http://thinkfree.ca](http://thinkfree.ca) and [http://worldfreemansociety.org](http://worldfreemansociety.org) We’ve discussed these guys extensively on the JREF forum. With regards to that last link, the fellow behind it has posted as well. I’d suggest you look at this: [http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5967354#post5967354](http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5967354#post5967354) and then judge his level of honesty. You can then read the several thousand other posts in that thread, which show in rather excruciating detail that these guys are off their rockers, when they’re not simply conmen. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/14 "2010-06-07T00:12:56Z")
Nutjob theories about practically everything being an illegitimate legal fiction aside, just how far in various countries can one truly “opt out” of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship? If someone actually wanted to say “I’ll take my chances on my own without any protection from the government”, how far could that be taken? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/15 "2010-06-07T00:17:50Z")
That’s the second time I’ve heard this idea in a week (from people who seemed to be serious). Maybe it’s a trend. I’d advise against it even if you can do it. Getting cable access and pizza delivery will be very difficult. Just get a piece of property outside of major urban areas, and don’t make a lot of noise. Everybody else and the government isn’t that interested in what you’re doing anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/16 "2010-06-07T00:27:00Z")
These types of argument are complete and utter bunk. What they basically boil down to is the idea that “whatever I think about something is the absolute and objectively correct final word that nobody can deny.” So, these folks will say, for example, that the US federal income tax was never properly enacted and therefore can’t be imposed. The problem for them is that that is only their opinion. How things work in the USA is that courts get to decide things like whether the US federal income tax was properly enacted and can be enforced against individuals, and the indviduals’ opinions don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/17 "2010-06-07T02:24:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Nutjob theories about practically everything being an illegitimate legal fiction aside, just how far in various countries can one truly “opt out” of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship? If someone actually wanted to say “I’ll take my chances on my own without any protection from the government”, how far could that be taken? Not very far. As I understand it, if you’re within the territory of the United States of America you’re in the jurisdiction of the United States - American law applies to you (barring a few established legal exceptions which you cannot invoke upon yourself). Pretty much the same principle is applicable in every country. So if you want to live outside of the law, you’re probably going to have to go to some non-national territory like living on a boat in international waters. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/18 "2010-06-07T02:30:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if you want to live outside of the law, you’re probably going to have to go to some non-national territory like living on a boat in international waters. True, but it is possible to live in such a way as to minimize contact with the government. If you own land, pay your taxes, and don’t bother anybody, mostly the government will leave you alone. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/19 "2010-06-07T03:37:30Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If you own land, pay your taxes, and don’t bother anybody, mostly the government will leave you alone. - “But I don’t WANNA pay any taxes!”\* ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203/20 "2010-06-07T03:46:35Z")
So don’t think of it as paying taxes. Think of it as tribute to a more powerful nation, with the ability to turn your sovereign state into a radioactive wasteland. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freeman-on-the-land-opting-out-of-society/542203.md?page=2)