# Freemasons, where did the conspiracy ideas come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862 "2001-11-23T05:03:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/1 "2001-11-23T05:03:55Z")
In short, what do we know for sure about these orginations, Is there any proven connecion between the freemasons and italys P2 conspiracy; especally the hanging of one of the conspirators in a matter that seems at first to point to masonic involvement. And of course the whole french Revolution thing. One finally note, While i do fancy myself kind of a conspiracy expert(ok asspiring expert) I DO NOT believe in 99.99% of these conspiracy theories. I do howeve, have an intense interest in the psychology and shreads of truth that exploded into mass theories. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/2 "2001-11-23T05:33:44Z")
The Freemasons are, by their own admission, a secret society. Outsiders naturally are going to speculate on what exactly those secrets are. As for connections between the Freemasons and world domination, these go back to Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Bavarian Illuminati. Weishaupt planned to infiltrate and secretly take control of the existing Freemasons and thereby manipulate their membership into furthering his plans for political power. Weishaupt basically failed and his organization was disbanded in less than a decade but conspiracy theorists believe that this apparent collapse was only a cover so the Illuminati could go underground and secretly continue their political program. ---
**Author:** ![beergeek279](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@beergeek279](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beergeek279)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/3 "2001-11-23T06:19:33Z")
I think another reason that this persists is the relatively high positions of power that Masons hold. I wouldn’t be able to tell you all of the office holders who were/are Masons, but they almost make the other “conspiracy” groups (Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs, etc) look proletarian. ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/4 "2001-11-23T07:05:51Z")
Let’s do away with a few myths shall we? The Masons are not a political group. > [@](#): > > Freemasonry is definitely not a political organisation, it has no political agenda, and discussion of politics is not permitted at lodge meetings. The Masons are not a religious group. > [@](#): > > Freemasonry is not a religion. it has no theology and does not teach any route to salvation. A belief in God, however, is an essential requirement for membership and Freemasonry encourages its members to be active in their own religions as well as in society at large. The Masons are not a “secret society”. Anything you want to know about them is available at the Library of Congress. > [@](#): > > Freemasonry is not a secret society, but lodge meetings, like meetings of many other social and professional associations, are private occasions open only to members. My observation has been that the fraternity is the equivalant to a woman’s rotisserie club. A chance to get together with other men, discuss the gossip of the county/city, and eat. In some areas these days, it is not much more than a springboard to join the Shriners. For more info, check this out: [http://www.thefreemason.com/faq.htm](http://www.thefreemason.com/faq.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/5 "2001-11-23T08:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RugbyMan \* > \*\*I think another reason that this persists is the relatively high positions of power that Masons hold. I wouldn’t be able to tell you all of the office holders who were/are Masons, but they almost make the other “conspiracy” groups (Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs, etc) look proletarian. \*\* Well, I think 48 of the last 50 presidents were either on the TriLat Commission or the Council of Foreign Relations, or both. I think most of the presidents have also been Masons too (around 30 or so?). It doesn’t mean there’s a grand conspiracy to install NWO, just a conspiracy you see with most organizations… gaining prestige and special favors, like being invited to White House dinners and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/6 "2001-11-23T13:52:57Z")
48 of our last 50 presidents? Last time I counted, we’d had 42 presidents (I’m not counting Cleveland twice). Are you telling me that 8 Masons were both powerful enough to become president AND sneaky enough to cover that fact up? I DO know that most of the Virginians who became President in the early days of the U.S. (including Washington) were Freemasons. The Masons were perceived as so powerful that a serious political party, the anti-Masons, was established to combat them. In fact, the anti-Masons were the first political party in U.S. history to hold a nominating convention (though, ironically, the man they ended up nominating for president had been a Mason himself). ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/7 "2001-11-24T03:39:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*48 of our last 50 presidents? > > Last time I counted, we’d had 42 presidents (I’m not counting Cleveland twice). Are you telling me that 8 Masons were both powerful enough to become president AND sneaky enough to cover that fact up? > \*\* I said what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/8 "2001-11-25T18:07:24Z")
If you want conspiracy theory, read “Holy Blood, Holy Grail”. It suggests that the “holy grail” is Jesus’s bloodline (descendants), which secret societies must now protect (Knights Templar). I wouldn’t be at all surprised if US presidents were masons. Lots of famous people over the years have been: John Wayne, Neil Armstrong, Winston Churchill, Cecil B DeMille, Arthur Conan Doyle, etc. Of course, as my grandfather was also one, I’m inclined to believe that the real deal is close to the Simpsons parody (ribs, beer and pool). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/9 "2001-11-29T07:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > The Masons are not a “secret society”. Anything you want to know about them is available at the Library of Congress. I didn’t mean the Masons are a secret society in the sense of being a society whose existence is supposed to be a secret. I meant it in the sense of being a society which has secrets which are only supposed to be known by its members. Granted most of these secrets are trivial and are readily available to any non-member who cares to do a minimum of research. But the fact remains that the Masons openly adhere to the ideal that they are privy to secrets that they cannot reveal to anyone who isn’t a Mason. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/10 "2001-11-29T12:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cat Fight \* > \*\*If you want conspiracy theory, read “Holy Blood, Holy Grail”. It suggests that the “holy grail” is Jesus’s bloodline (descendants), which secret societies must now protect (Knights Templar). \*\* What I especially liked about that book (or was it the “Bloodlines of the Holy Grail” one) was the fact that at the start, the author’s patron was Prince Michael of somewhere. Then in the conclusion, the true descendant of Christ today turned out to be… drumroll… Prince Michael of wherever. I read it ages ago though, so maybe I got confused. > [@](#): > > **Freemasonry is not a religion. it has no theology and does not teach any route to salvation. A belief in God, however, is an essential requirement for membership and Freemasonry encourages its members to be active in their own religions as well as in society at large.** Nooo!!! Please don’t blow out my fave urban myth!!! That the Masons have a god called “Jabalon” - a mixture of Jahweh, Baal, and something else - and that’s the reason why no UK car numberplates are JAB, because it would offend the Masons. The Masons actually rented my brother’s school hall to have one of their meeting things once. It was all private and secret, only some boarders snuck out at night and climbed onto some balcony thing where they could see through the window. There were lots of men in strange robes doing weird ceremonies, or so they claimed… ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/11 "2001-11-29T16:36:10Z")
istara- different book. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/12 "2001-11-29T16:43:52Z")
Read foucalt’s pendolum by Umberto Eco, it’s very funny and it deals with all the conspiracies theories. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/13 "2001-11-29T17:07:28Z")
My only personal experience with the Freemasons was a time they loaned out their “public” hall to us Wiccans for a ritual. They had guards posted everywhere except the bar (yes, there is a bar in the freemason’s hall…). I passed through that bar to get to the washroom. I didn’t see anyone there under the age of, I’d guess, 80. When I was looking around the bathroom for a towel/paper towel/hand dryer, a particularly elderly freemason handed me his personal towel, and apologized _that it was pink._ :rolleyes: Mostly, it seemed like a social club for extremely old, sheltered males, who’ve missed all political/social progress for the last 60 years. (which I suppose is the best evidence of all they’re secretly running governments :D) But I’d always heard that several of America’s founders were Freemasons, hence the Freemason symbol on your one-dollar bill. There was a lot of belief in the 1700’s that the Freemasons were politically involved, and the major force behind the democratic revolutions in the US and France. No one’s been able to confirm it, though, and I don’t think anyone things they’re involved in anything now. I think any cyurrent rumours are just 200-year echos. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/14 "2001-11-29T17:18:49Z")
From what I understand there are things in the past of the freemasons that are somewhat shady. I remember a special on TV that covered their history. I don’t know enough to comment on any possible past wrongdoings, so I won’t. I find most people just cannot accept that any type of secret organization exists and leave it alone. In much the same way that college students and others have contempt for Fraternities and Sororities because they are not members. Many people probably think that if the Freemasons are secret, then they must have some evil to hide. There is also a lot of sour grapes type thinking regarding secret organizations of this kind. People aren’t included, so they convince themselves that they are just a bunch of old men, behind the times, and I wouldn’t want to join anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/15 "2001-11-29T17:31:21Z")
There is another very interesting book (I don’t remember the title) by the same authors (whose names I also can’t recall) that deals with the relationship of the Knights Templar to the Freemasons, and the effect of Freemasonry on the American Revolution. (Sorry to be so vague. I loaned my copy to someone years ago and it was never returned. If anyone knows the name of the book, or just the authors, could they please post it?) ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/16 "2001-11-29T21:57:56Z")
there was a piece on the history channel which said 54 men signed the declaration of independence. 50 of them were known freemasons. what is the probability of that without conspiracy? for more wierdness see: THE ULTIMATE FRONTIER by Eklal Kueshana RULE BY SECRECY by Jim Marrs Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/17 "2001-11-30T01:10:45Z")
**dal timgar** returns. Time for some more economic wargames? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/18 "2001-11-30T02:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dal\_timgar \* > there was a piece on the history channel which said 54 men signed the declaration of independence. 50 of them were known freemasons. what is the probability of that without conspiracy? 100%. Next question, please. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/19 "2001-11-30T03:28:44Z")
Ferrous- you might be thinking of “The Temple and the Lodge” by Michael Baigent, one of the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862/20 "2001-11-30T17:01:40Z")
That’s the one! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/freemasons-where-did-the-conspiracy-ideas-come-from/94862.md?page=2)