# French dopers: what's the deal with "la quenelle", is it anti-semitic or just anti-establishment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371 "2013-12-28T21:39:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/21 "2013-12-30T18:04:42Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As for the “quenelle”, I didn’t even know it existed until last week. But given the source, I have zero doubt about the way I should interpret it. I’m sure he’s truthful when he says it’s an anti-establishment “salute”. You just have to consider which people he thinks are making up the “establishment”. > > Also, given that the “quenelle salute” is done in front of synagogues, Jewish schools, etc… even in Auschwitz, it seems to me that people doing it aren’t fooled, either (although I’m sure there are some naive ones too). This is pretty much my take on it. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/22 "2013-12-30T21:36:13Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The one time I saw that gesture performed irl, the performer was a man in his 50s, no Jews were involved (unless he happens to be one, which I didn’t ask) and it had the same meaning as [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWM6M3LVhEI) gesture. Well, the soldier was really emphatic! :eek: I didn’t have any audio so I am not sure what the clip was about, so if I ran across that guy not as part of the thread, I would interpret it as basically ‘fuck you and the horse you road in on’ more or less - no racial or religious subtext at all, just really really pissed off and showing it emphatically. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/23 "2013-12-31T02:15:49Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > … if I ran across that guy not as part of the thread, I would interpret it as basically ‘fuck you and the horse you road in on’ more or less… Yup – it’s the “bras d’honneur” or “corte de manga” apparently. ([wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras_d%27honneur)). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/24 "2013-12-31T09:00:47Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Well, the soldier was really emphatic! :eek: That’s why I picked it - you sure don’t need a lot of explanation with that video! ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/25 "2014-01-02T10:53:25Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As for the “quenelle”, I didn’t even know it existed until last week. But given the source, I have zero doubt about the way I should interpret it. I’m sure he’s truthful when he says it’s an anti-establishment “salute”. You just have to consider which people he thinks are making up the “establishment”. Yes, that’s how I read it… it’s pitched as anti-establishment but with a knowing wink to say “and we all know who the establishment are”. [QUOTE=Nava] I’m wondering, Wallenstein, is the “reverse roman salute” yours or did you copy it? I would never have associated le quenelle with a roman salute, but I do associate it with a related Spanish gesture. [/QUOTE] The “reverse roman salute” is how it’s been described in the UK; I suspect part of it might be a cultural gap as we don’t have a similar “bras d’honneur” gesture here (just the middle-finger or the [flicked V-sign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#V_sign_as_an_insult)). Plus the anti-Jewish statements made by Dieudonné mean left-wing commentators have overlaid Nazi connotations onto the gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Depakote\_Chopra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/919ad9/32.png) [@Depakote\_Chopra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Depakote_Chopra)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/26 "2014-01-03T18:04:02Z")
Dieudonné M’bala M’bala… Jamel Debbouze… Nicolas Anelka… It’s really sad that this Aryan White Blue-Eyed Superior Race bullshit is still alive. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371/27 "2014-01-03T19:49:14Z")
In many former French colonies in Africa and their diaspora communities, you’ll find a lot of (pretty justified) anti-French sentiment, and that gets mixed up with anti-semitism in two ways…one is filtered in through some strains of Islam and Arab influence, and the other is a bit of admiration of the Nazis for “fighting the French” In Cameroon, where Dieudonne Mbala Mbala’s mother is from, the memories of German colonialism are as warm as the memories of French colonialism are angry, and Nazis are a subject of much fascination. Likewise, modern villains like Osama Bin Laden are sometimes seen as underdogs who found a way to stick it to the modern colonial powers. It’s not necessarily an agreement with radical Islam, as much as an tendency to feel some affinity with whoever is pissing off France/the US. I’d guess this extends into other African communities in France. It seems to me like Dieudonne started to throw some of this into his sketches, and quickly discovered that it achieved two goals-- it bought him a lot of fans among more dedicated anti-Semites (including lots of disaffected North African young men), and it pissed off the French government and exposed the limitations of free speech in France. The legal action by the French government caused both of these to grow, and Dieudonne discovered that the more he dug in to his position, the bigger he got and the more he became a thorn in the government’s side and the more it all snowballed. At this point, I’m pretty sure the beliefs he spews are genuine, but they’ve definitely evolved and solidified along with the evolution of his fan community and notoriety. I’d think of the _quenelle_ as akin to the Confederate flag- it’s both an expression of racism, and an expression of general anti-establishment sentiment. Young people do it out of general "let’s piss people off"ness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-dopers-whats-the-deal-with-la-quenelle-is-it-anti-semitic-or-just-anti-establishment/677371.md?page=1)