# French economist Thomas Piketty is raising a ruckus **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690 "2014-04-22T15:37:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/321 "2014-05-23T19:45:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Thinking you are learning something from ads for your side is like thinking you are learning about world affairs from watching the Daily Show. No, not nearly that much. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/322 "2014-05-23T21:38:49Z")
[Piketty findings undercut by errors](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/e1f343ca-e281-11e3-89fd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32ZprTeHg) > [@](#): > > The data underpinning Professor Piketty’s 577-page tome, which has dominated best-seller lists in recent weeks, contain a series of errors that skew his findings. The FT found mistakes and unexplained entries in his spreadsheets, similar to those which last year undermined the work on public debt and growth of Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff. > > Prof Piketty, 43, provides detailed sourcing for his estimates of wealth inequality in Europe and the US over the past 200 years. In his spreadsheets, however, there are transcription errors from the original sources and incorrect formulas. It also appears that some of the data are cherry-picked or constructed without an original source. > > For example, once the FT cleaned up and simplified the data, the European numbers do not show any tendency towards rising wealth inequality after 1970. An independent specialist in measuring inequality shared the FT’s concerns. More here: > **[The FT Isn't Just Saying Piketty Made A Mistake — It's Saying He Manipulated...](https://www.businessinsider.com/the-ft-accusation-against-piketty-2014-5)** > > A MAJOR accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/323 "2014-05-23T22:32:15Z")
nm - already posted ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/324 "2014-05-24T00:38:47Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [Piketty findings undercut by errors](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/e1f343ca-e281-11e3-89fd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32ZprTeHg) > > More here: > > [FT Accusation Against Piketty - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ft-accusation-against-piketty-2014-5) [Piketty responds.](http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2014/05/23/piketty-response-to-ft-data-concerns/) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/325 "2014-05-24T12:41:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Piketty responds.](http://blogs.ft.com/money-supply/2014/05/23/piketty-response-to-ft-data-concerns/) Your link does not lead to Piketty’s comments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/326 "2014-05-24T14:18:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Your link does not lead to Piketty’s comments. I was afraid of that; I had to register with the site (Financial Times) just to read it. Mods, may I have permission to C&P the whole thing? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/327 "2014-05-24T14:37:09Z")
You may not. Under no circumstances will such be allowed on the SDMB. Mad props for asking, though. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/328 "2014-05-24T14:53:11Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > You may not. Under no circumstances will such be allowed on the SDMB. > > Mad props for asking, though. Well done. In that case, if you want to read Piketty’s response (which is essentially that he did the best he could with such data as are available at present, transparency in financial matters not being all it could be) go to this link and register: > **[Financial Times](https://www.ft.com/)** > > News, analysis and opinion from the Financial Times on the latest in markets, economics and politics ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/329 "2014-05-24T15:39:52Z")
[Krugman weighs in.](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/is-piketty-all-wrong/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) I should’ve said this yesterday, but I’ll go ahead and predict that the errors will be used to dismiss the entire concept even though the conclusion is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/330 "2014-05-24T15:45:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Krugman weighs in.](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/is-piketty-all-wrong/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) I should’ve said this yesterday, but I’ll go ahead and predict that the errors will be used to dismiss the entire concept even though the conclusion is accurate. I see. Krugman is going for “fake but accurate” defense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/331 "2014-05-24T16:21:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I see. Krugman is going for “fake but accurate” defense. No, he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/332 "2014-05-25T05:29:43Z")
> **[A New Critique of Piketty Has Its Own Shortcomings (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/upshot/a-new-critique-of-piketty-has-its-own-shortcomings.html?rref=upshot&_r=0)** > > A look at The Financial Times’s re-analysis of data used in “Capital in the 21st Century” suggests there may be less to it than meets the eye. I haven’t read the FT’s paywalled story but this seems the most balanced assessment: the FT does find a few genuine errors without undermining the main thrust of Piketty’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/333 "2014-05-25T17:58:00Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/upshot/a-new-critique-of-piketty-has-its-own-shortcomings.html?rref=upshot&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/upshot/a-new-critique-of-piketty-has-its-own-shortcomings.html?rref=upshot&_r=0) > > I haven’t read the FT’s paywalled story but this seems the most balanced assessment: the FT does find a few genuine errors without undermining the main thrust of Piketty’s argument. It’s not exactly “paywalled,” registration is required but free. I guess they’re just trying to build up their e-mailing list. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/334 "2014-05-25T18:20:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Krugman weighs in.](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/is-piketty-all-wrong/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) I should’ve said this yesterday, but I’ll go ahead and predict that the errors will be used to dismiss the entire concept even though the conclusion is accurate. Well, I don’t think the conclusion is accurate, but the errors don’t diminish the greatness of the work. I finally did start reading it, and while he goes wrong, probably due to ideological bias, he does make a lot of great points. The most obvious being that capital does indeed grow faster than wages. I just don’t think that’s as significant as he makes out, because he’s looking at things in the aggregate rather than on the individual levels. For most people, their wages rise throughout their working life as their skills and experience increase. If they save money, then that money increases at a much faster rate than their wages. While I’m 90% dependent on wages to live, one difference between now and when I was in my 20s is that I have a significant amount of stock, and the dividends rise by about 10-15% per year, much faster than my pay. It’s kinda nice to get that raise every year, even if my paper balance fluctuates as the market goes up and down. And since I’m not getting a raise from my company this year… I think his mistake is in viewing workers and capital as totally seperate, which is just not accurate anymore. Most people are homeowners, most workers who aren’t in the low wage sector have significant savings(although most don’t have enough) invested in stocks. We have continued to transition to an ownership society and I don’t think any economists have really come to grips with how that’s going to play out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/335 "2014-05-25T18:47:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I just don’t think that’s as significant as he makes out, because he’s looking at things in the aggregate rather than on the individual levels. The aggregate is where it matters WRT influence on public policy. > [@adaher](#): > > I think his mistake is in viewing workers and capital as totally seperate, which is just not accurate anymore. It is entirely accurate viewing them as social classes, and the “ownership society” does not change that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/336 "2014-05-26T04:02:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The aggregate is where it matters WRT influence on public policy. Most of the time that is the case, but in this case I don’t think so. Let’s say that by 2100, 70% of income is drawn from capital, only 30% from wages. Sounds horrible, and it would be, if the percentage of Americans relying on capital for most of their income was the same as it is now. But perhaps by 2100, most Americans will be drawing income from capital, with wages only supplementing their living expenses, which is the opposite of the way things are today. > [@](#): > > It is entirely accurate viewing them as social classes, and the “ownership society” does not change that. It doesn’t change the basic dichotomy, but it does slightly alter it over time, to the point where you could end up in a very different place in the future. If the median American has a couple hundred thousand in net worth, that’s going to create a very different political and social environment, no matter how rich Warren Buffett gets. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/337 "2014-05-26T13:53:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the median American has a couple hundred thousand in net worth . . . Doubtful, short of revolution. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/338 "2014-05-26T14:19:53Z")
Not really. If 60% of Americans are homeowners and the average home price is $100,000, and in addition most working Americans have a 401(k), we might already be pretty close to that. According to this cite, in 2007, median net household worth was over 100K. > **[Affluence in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States)** > > Affluence refers to an individual's or household's economical and financial advantage in comparison to others. It may be assessed through either income or wealth. > In absolute terms affluence is a relatively widespread phenomenon in the United States, with over 30% of households having an income exceeding $100,000 per year and over 30% of households having a net worth exceeding $250,000, as of 2019. However, when looked at in relative terms, wealth is highly concentrated: the bottom 50% of Amer... ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/339 "2014-05-26T14:33:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Krugman weighs in.](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/is-piketty-all-wrong/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0) I should’ve said this yesterday, but I’ll go ahead and predict that the errors will be used to dismiss the entire concept even though the conclusion is accurate. > [@Lantern](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/upshot/a-new-critique-of-piketty-has-its-own-shortcomings.html?rref=upshot&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/upshot/a-new-critique-of-piketty-has-its-own-shortcomings.html?rref=upshot&_r=0) > > I haven’t read the FT’s paywalled story but this seems the most balanced assessment: the FT does find a few genuine errors without undermining the main thrust of Piketty’s argument. Shorn of the finding that inequality has been rising, though, what is the main conclusion that remains accurate? ---
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690/340 "2014-05-27T00:57:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not sure that government reduces inequality except at the margins. And mostly by making rich people poorer, not by making poor people richer. So that wealth from the rich is mostly transferred to the government itself, which creates a new class, and a pretty entitled one to boot, of bureaucrats. > > Now maybe there’s this theoretical good government that can wisely make economic policy in a non-self-interested way to benefit the masses, but since this government is going to be run by people, it will never actually exist. New Deal policies like government protection of labor unions and minimum wage legislation won for millions of Americans higher incomes than they would have earned from the law of supply and demand. The government also achieved greater economic equality by taxing the rich heavily and using the money to fund programs that the rich did not need, but which benefited people who are not rich. Because of the Republican ascendancy that certainly took hold with the 1980 election of Ronald Reagan these policies have been reversed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-economist-thomas-piketty-is-raising-a-ruckus/686690.md?page=18)