# French grammar Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973 "2016-07-15T13:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/1 "2016-07-15T13:55:26Z")
Hi, If I want state a location in a city, do I usually use “au”? The reason I’m asking is because I hear native French speakers using “au” for places in Sacramento. But they couldn’t explain why they use “au” rather than “à”. The only reason I can come up with is that they use “au” when referring to a name of a location, like a mall for instance. Would that apply to places outside the city like Roseville or would I say “J’habite à Roseville”. I’ve seen some grammar books suggest dropping the “à” altogether only to be told that its wrong to do that. J’habite à Sacramento but J’habite au Roseville. ??? I look forward to your feedback. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/2 "2016-07-15T13:59:20Z")
“au” basically is a replacement for “à le”. Presumably if you are going to a place that would normally take a definite article (like “the mall”) and that place is grammatically masculine (so the definite article is “le”), you use “au”. I don’t know how Roseville applies to this. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/3 "2016-07-15T14:16:19Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > “au” basically is a replacement for “à le”. Presumably if you are going to a place that would normally take a definite article (like “the mall”) and that place is grammatically masculine (so the definite article is “le”), you use “au”. > > I don’t know how Roseville applies to this. Yes “au” makes sense for a mall. Would I use it for a district within a city or a suburb or simply use “à”? What about a gated community? e.g… I live at Morgan Creek, Roseville, Sacramento. J’habite au Morgan Creek, (à) Roseville, (à)Sacramento ? ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/4 "2016-07-15T14:16:47Z")
There are various prepositions for places, and their usage is inconsistent. _J’habite à Paris._ (masculine I think, but poets disagree) _J’habite en Ile-de-France._ (feminine) _J’habite en France._ (feminine) _J’habite dans l’Hexagone._ (masculine, usually with the article) _J’habite au Pérou._ (masculine) _J’habite au Québec._ (masculine) _Je suis allé aux États-Unis._ (masculine, plural) _Je suis allé en Argentine._ (feminine) _Je suis allé à la Guadeloupe / en Guadeloupe._ (feminine with an article) The word \*ville \*is feminine, so Roseville can hardly be masculine. So the form _J’habite au Roseville_ really gives the impression that Roseville is the name of a hotel or other building. “I’m staying at the Roseville”, literally. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/5 "2016-07-15T14:21:34Z")
For towns and cities you would use “à”, except where the name of the place includes the article (thus “J’habite au Havre” or “à La Baule”). I can only suppose OP’s French friends may be unconsciously thinking of the places they refer to as though they have the gender and article that they would have in the French equivalent. Shopping malls, restaurants and shops are all generically masculine. If it’s a suburb or neighbourhood, is their mental dictionary writing in “le quartier X” or “L’arrondissement”? It’s certainly usual in Paris to say “au seizième”, for example; but here again conversational and slang usage can omit articles and prepositions - I have heard things like “Il habite Buttes Chaumont” or “près Montparnasse”, for example, but it isn’t formally correct. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/6 "2016-07-15T14:25:35Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > There are various prepositions for places, and their usage is inconsistent. > > _J’habite à Paris._ (masculine I think, but poets disagree) > _J’habite en Ile-de-France._ (feminine) > _J’habite en France._ (feminine) > _J’habite dans l’Hexagone._ (masculine, usually with the article) > _J’habite au Pérou._ (masculine) > _J’habite au Québec._ (masculine) > _Je suis allé aux États-Unis._ (masculine, plural) > _Je suis allé en Argentine._ (feminine) > _Je suis allé à la Guadeloupe / en Guadeloupe._ (feminine with an article) > > The word \*ville \*is feminine, so Roseville can hardly be masculine. So the form _J’habite au Roseville_ really gives the impression that Roseville is the name of a hotel or other building. “I’m staying at the Roseville”, literally. Thanks Hereacles. Since Roseville is a suburb of Sacramento, à Roseville should be correct. But in a gated community called Morgan Creek, would it be “au Morgan Creek”?? So J’habite au Morgan Creek? ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/7 "2016-07-15T14:28:03Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > For towns and cities you would use “à”, except where the name of the place includes the article (thus “J’habite au Havre” or “à La Baule”). > > I can only suppose OP’s French friends may be unconsciously thinking of the places they refer to as though they have the gender and article that they would have in the French equivalent. Shopping malls, restaurants and shops are all generically masculine. If it’s a suburb or neighbourhood, is their mental dictionary writing in “le quartier X” or “L’arrondissement”? It’s certainly usual in Paris to say “au seizième”, for example; but here again conversational and slang usage can omit articles and prepositions - I have heard things like “Il habite Buttes Chaumont” or “près Montparnasse”, for example, but it isn’t formally correct. Thanks Patrick London. It doesn’t feel right saying “à Morgan Creek” but maybe I’ve picked up some bad French usage. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/8 "2016-07-15T16:43:59Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > If I want state a location in a city, do I usually use “au”? The reason I’m asking is because I hear native French speakers using “au” for places in Sacramento. Can you give us some examples of these place names? That would help a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/9 "2016-07-15T17:39:18Z")
It gets confusing when you have cities and provinces with the same name. J’habite à Québec means you live in Quebec City. J’habite au Québec means you live in the province. You will indeed find some instances of francophones dropping the article, eg. j’habite Montréal, but that’s along the same lines as “I live and love Montreal.” With distinctly non-French names you can probably use whichever you want, since there isn’t enough of a consensus as to whether the place name in masculine or feminine. When in doubt, consult the Académie Francaise at [http://www.academie-francaise.fr/](http://www.academie-francaise.fr/) And when you’re fed up with them, do like all francophones do and ignore 'em 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/10 "2016-07-16T01:11:47Z")
[quote=“Barbarian, post:9, topic:759973”] It gets confusing when you have cities and provinces with the same name. Thanks all. Very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/11 "2016-07-17T14:30:51Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > It gets confusing when you have cities and provinces with the same name. > > J’habite à Québec means you live in Quebec City. > J’habite au Québec means you live in the province. > You will indeed find some instances of francophones dropping the article, eg. j’habite Montréal, but that’s along the same lines as “I live and love Montreal.” > > With distinctly non-French names you can probably use whichever you want, since there isn’t enough of a consensus as to whether the place name in masculine or feminine. > > When in doubt, consult the Académie Francaise at [http://www.academie-francaise.fr/](http://www.academie-francaise.fr/) > And when you’re fed up with them, do like all francophones do and ignore 'em 🙂 But for some reason (maybe because NYC is divided into boroughs or simply because it occupies so much mental real estate) you would likely say J’habite dans l’Etat de New York rather than J’habite au New York if you lived upstate. Notice the parallel to I live in Washington State whereas you omit the word “State” for all other states (except maybe NY). I live in Ohio State would sound like you lived inside OSU. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/12 "2016-07-18T02:34:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > But for some reason (maybe because NYC is divided into boroughs or simply because it occupies so much mental real estate) you would likely say > J’habite dans l’Etat de New York > rather than > J’habite au New York > if you lived upstate. Notice the parallel to > I live in Washington State > whereas you omit the word “State” for all other states (except maybe NY). > I live in Ohio State > would sound like you lived inside OSU. Thanks Hari Seldon. My feeling is that the French tend to stick to their native linguistic conventions no matter where they go. So it would probably be “au New York” “à Manhattan” “à Queens” “à Bay Club Community” (gated community/(quartiers résidentiels enclos et sécurisés) “au Queens Center” (mall/centre commercial) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/13 "2016-07-18T08:00:03Z")
_Villes_ take _à_, not _au_, unless their name includes the _le_. So the city is _à New York_. And of course the French stick to their native linguistic conventions when speaking French, as does everybody else whenever speaking their own native language! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/14 "2016-07-18T09:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=davidmich] Thanks Hari Seldon. My feeling is that the French tend to stick to their native linguistic conventions no matter where they go. So it would probably be “au New York” “à Manhattan” “à Queens” “à Bay Club Community” (gated community/(quartiers résidentiels enclos et sécurisés) “au Queens Center” (mall/centre commercial) [/QUOTE] Metropolitan Frenchie here. We’d say “à New York” (if speaking about NYC), “à Manhattan”, “dans le Queens”, “dans Bay Club Community” et “au Queens Center” respectively. Don’t ask me why or the inner logic. I just speak the language, I never claimed it made any sense to me :D. The Queens thing is probably a parallel we make with Parisian 'hoods (le Marais, la Goutte d’Or, le Sentier etc… though now that I think about it for others, like Montmartre or Montrouge, we skip the article. Again, don’t ask me why.) ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/15 "2016-07-18T11:46:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Metropolitan Frenchie here. We’d say “à New York” (if speaking about NYC), “à Manhattan”, “dans le Queens”, “dans Bay Club Community” et “au Queens Center” respectively. > > Don’t ask me why or the inner logic. I just speak the language, I never claimed it made any sense to me :D. The Queens thing is probably a parallel we make with Parisian 'hoods (le Marais, la Goutte d’Or, le Sentier etc… though now that I think about it for others, like Montmartre or Montrouge, we skip the article. Again, don’t ask me why.) Thanks Kobal2. A little surprised at “dans le Queens”. It’s a borough like Manhattan. But it’s also the city proper, whereas Queens feels like a suburb of the city. Would that apply to all suburbs then ? “dans le Richmond” (suburb of Adelaide). But “dans Bay Club Community” makes sense. It’s enclosed after all. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/16 "2016-07-18T12:00:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Metropolitan Frenchie here. We’d say “à New York” (if speaking about NYC), “à Manhattan”, “dans le Queens”, “dans Bay Club Community” et “au Queens Center” respectively. > > Don’t ask me why or the inner logic. I just speak the language, I never claimed it made any sense to me :D. The Queens thing is probably a parallel we make with Parisian 'hoods (le Marais, la Goutte d’Or, le Sentier etc… though now that I think about it for others, like Montmartre or Montrouge, we skip the article. Again, don’t ask me why.) Thanks Kobal2. A little surprised at “dans le Queens”. It’s a borough like Manhattan. But it’s also the city proper, whereas Queens feels like a suburb of the city. Would that apply to all suburbs then ? “dans le Richmond” (suburb of Adelaide). But “dans Bay Club Community” makes sense. It’s enclosed after all. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/17 "2016-07-18T12:33:51Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Thanks Kobal2. A little surprised at “dans le Queens”. It’s a borough like Manhattan. But it’s also the city proper, whereas Queens feels like a suburb of the city. Would that apply to all suburbs then ? “dans le Richmond” (suburb of Adelaide). But “dans Bay Club Community” makes sense. It’s enclosed after all. Does this sound right? "J’ai vue une mère dans Bays Club Community en traînant son fils beuglant (de rage) derrière elle . (I saw a mother in Bays Club Community dragging her bawling son behind her.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/18 "2016-07-18T13:57:03Z")
I’m not sure we wouldn’t put an “à” there, but both sound about right, yes. Although the order of the words is wrong-ish - French and English differ in their semantic structure. In English, y’all go from the detail to the important, ending sentences with the key or most salient bit of information. French is the other way around. So “J’ai vu une mère qui trainait son fils beuglant de rage derrière elle dans/à BCC” would sound more natural and less translatey. “Le Queens” is, I think, because we know it’s culturally a part of NYC but few of us realize what it \*feels \*like - hell, \*\*I \*\*don’t know, and I’m steeped in US culture ! :). Plus it’s famous and unique enough to have its own article I suppose, like the London “City” (la City) Richmond I’m not sure about as I don’t know the place at all - is it a case of conurbation, Adelaide swallowing another town ? Or a neighbourhood within the city ? My go-to way of ascertaining that kind of thing is to look it up on Wikipedia then switch to the French version of the page, but there’s no page on Richmond and it’s not mentioned at all on the main Adelaïde page, so… :o ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/759973/19 "2016-07-18T14:10:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not sure we wouldn’t put an “à” there, but both sound about right, yes. > > Although the order of the words is wrong-ish - French and English differ in their semantic structure. In English, y’all go from the detail to the important, ending sentences with the key or most salient bit of information. French is the other way around. So “J’ai vu une mère qui trainait son fils beuglant de rage derrière elle dans/à BCC” would sound more natural and less translatey. > > “Le Queens” is, I think, because we know it’s culturally a part of NYC but few of us realize what it \*feels \*like - hell, \*\*I \*\*don’t know, and I’m steeped in US culture ! :). Plus it’s famous and unique enough to have its own article I suppose, like the London “City” (la City) > Richmond I’m not sure about as I don’t know the place at all - is it a case of conurbation, Adelaide swallowing another town ? Or a neighbourhood within the city ? My go-to way of ascertaining that kind of thing is to look it up on Wikipedia then switch to the French version of the page, but there’s no page on Richmond and it’s not mentioned at all on the main Adelaïde page, so… :o Thanks Kobal2. My gut feeling said “put the location at the end”. I’ll remember your explanation. Thanks!