# French grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111 "2019-10-01T18:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/1 "2019-10-01T18:50:41Z")
I’m learning French with Duolingo and had the sentence: “We are humans, not gods.” It was translated as: “Nous sommes des hommes, non des dieux.” I would have translated it as: “Nous sommes des hommes, pas des dieux.” Just like I’d translate “These are chairs, not tables.” as “Ce sont des chaises, pas des tables.” Why “non” in this context? Is it a special rule concerning persons? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/2 "2019-10-01T19:02:50Z")
[The Duolingo forums agree with you.](https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/977929/We-are-men-not-gods) Don’t assume that Duolingo is 100% correct. I was using it from Spanish to French and often the Spanish would be incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/3 "2019-10-01T19:20:39Z")
Definitely no special rule concerning persons. Don’t forget that by itself “pas”, strictly speaking (or maybe even old-fashionably?), does not indicate negation, which explains why it occurs in expressions like “ne… pas”. “Pas des dieux” sounds more like colloquial or informal language (but don’t hold me to that!) ---
**Author:** ![Oukile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@Oukile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oukile)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/4 "2019-10-01T19:32:10Z")
Native French speaker here… and as usual I don’t know the rule, but “non des dieux” is definitely correct. I think that you can use the “non” in exactly this type of sentences, when you state that something has a certain nature, and not another. Another example would be: “Je voulais du pain, non de la brioche” (I wanted bread, not cake) You can actually use “non pas”, i.e.: “Nous sommes des hommes, non pas des dieux.” ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/5 "2019-10-01T19:38:36Z")
> [@Oukile](#): > > Native French speaker here… and as usual I don’t know the rule, but “non des dieux” is definitely correct. > > I think that you can use the “non” in exactly this type of sentences, when you state that something has a certain nature, and not another. Another example would be: > “Je voulais du pain, non de la brioche” (I wanted bread, not cake) > > You can actually use “non pas”, i.e.: “Nous sommes des hommes, non pas des dieux.” So using “non”, “pas” or “non pas” are all valid options? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/6 "2019-10-01T20:02:14Z")
> [@Oukile](#): > > Native French speaker here… and as usual I don’t know the rule, but “non des dieux” is definitely correct. > > I think that you can use the “non” in exactly this type of sentences, when you state that something has a certain nature, and not another. Another example would be: > “Je voulais du pain, non de la brioche” (I wanted bread, not cake) > > You can actually use “non pas”, i.e.: “Nous sommes des hommes, non pas des dieux.” It’s correct, but it sounds exceedingly weird if you don’t add an “et” in there. “Nous sommes des hommes et non des dieux” is fine, but “, non des dieux” sounds all foofarah poetic and 16th century. The more common/fluent form of the phrase would indeed be “pas”. Any form with “non” would be awfully stuffy and old-fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/7 "2019-10-02T00:30:33Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > So using “non”, “pas” or “non pas” are all valid options? If you want some rules, such as there be, there are tons of examples in “Le Bon Usage”. Here is a sneak peek at §1029 (Rôle de la coordination), (b) (On oppose deux termes, en repoussant l’un): > [@](#): > > **1º** La négation est **absolue.** > > **α)** Si le syntagme contenant le terme rejeté vient **en premier lieu** , la négation est ordinairement exprimée dans l’écrit par _non_ ou (cf. § 1027, c) _non pas,_ parfois _non point,_ et _mais_ précède le second terme. > > _Il l’introduisit,_ NON _dans le boudoir ou dans sa chambre, mais dans la salle à manger_ (FLAUB., _Éduc.,_ 1,5). — _Jean tourne_ NON _la tête mais les yeux_ (MAURIAC, _Baiser au lépr.,_ III). — _Il est la victime […] du détective qui le met à mort,_ NON _par un de ces moyens vils […], mais par l’explosion de la vérité_ (BUTOR, _Emploi du temps,_ p. 214). > > […SNIP SNIP…] > > **β)** Si le syntagme contenant le terme rejeté, éventuellement introduit par _mais_ ou par _et_, vient **en second lieu** (place parfois exigée par la logique), _pas_ (plus rarement _point_) concurrence fortement _non_, _non pas_ et _non point_ même dans la langue écrite. > > _Pas : C’est pour lui qu’il travaille,_ PAS _pour les autres_ (_Ac._ 1935, s. v. _lui_). [Aucun ex. semblable en 2000.] — _Les avocats sont monarchistes,_ PAS _démocrates_ (LE ROY LADURIE, _Carnaval de Romans_, p. 396). > > […SNIP, more examples with “pas”, with “point”, with “non pas”, and, finally:] > > _Non_ : _C’est par amour de la justice_ […], NON _par envie_ (SABATIER, _op. cit._, p. 324). — _Son innovation est dans la syntaxe et le lexique_, NON _dans la thématique_ (DUFOURNET, _op. cit._, p. 21). > > […] A marginal paragraph tells us that > [@](#): > > Dans l’usage classique, _non_, _non pas_ et _non point_ étaient habituels : \*_Je parle de Néarque, et_ NON _de votre époux_ (CORN. , _Pol._, III, 3). — _Il faut se conduire par la raison, et_ NON PAS _par sa fantaisie_ (_Ac._ 1694, s. v. _pas_). > […] but proceeds to give examples using “point”, “et point”, and “pas” instead, e.g., “_Elle ressemble fort à son premier portrait_, ET POINT _du tout à l’autre_ (Louis XIV, lettre du 4 nov. 1696)”. So you can see how crystal-clear it all was, even in the 17th century. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/8 "2019-10-02T15:01:41Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > “Pas des dieux” sounds more like colloquial or informal language (but don’t hold me to that!) Sounds like choreography for minor deities, to me. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/9 "2019-10-04T12:36:02Z")
So for example: Il vient de Lens, pas de Calais. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/10 "2019-10-04T14:14:29Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > So for example: Il vient de Lens, pas de Calais. Queue the tired old joke, “I was planning on spending my holidays in Calais, but when I got there the signs all said Pas-De-Calais, so I turned back” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/11 "2019-10-04T15:30:44Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > … “Nous sommes des hommes, non des dieux.” > > I would have translated it as: > > “Nous sommes des hommes, pas des dieux.” I studied French in High School (and lived in France for most of a year) but don’t remember ever learning this usage of ‘non.’ _However, the form with ‘pas’ sounds wrong to me!_ (though I can’t explain why.) I would reword the sentence to avoid the problem. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/12 "2019-10-04T19:48:02Z")
“pas des dieux” is correct. That’s the way we say in the spoken langage. I see “non des dieux” as a translation of English. ---
**Author:** ![cplif](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@cplif](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cplif)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-grammar-question/841111/13 "2019-10-05T17:53:49Z")
Both “…pas des dieux” and …“non des dieux” will be understood by anyone, the latter is slightly more literary. The use of “… non pas des dieux” would probably be used to underline the tempo, as by a lawyer in court etc.