# French negative articles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914 "2012-12-03T23:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/1 "2012-12-03T23:48:06Z")
As those of you who speak French know, French indefinite and partitive articles change to _de_ in the negative: ``` Je mange souvent *des* biscuits. (I often eat cookies.) Je ne mange pas souvent *de* biscuits. (I don’t often eat cookies.) ``` I have been looking around the internet, but I have not been able to find out how this quirk of the language came to be. So, I was wondering if anyone knew. What’s the historical development of this phenomenon? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/2 "2012-12-04T01:33:49Z")
Here’s a discussion of what happened: > **[Etymology of the French negation](https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/etymology-of-the-french-negation.549291/)** > > Hi everyone, > > What is the reason that French people use the word "pas" (English: "step", Spanish/Portuguese: "paso", Italian: "passo") when they negate a sentence? > > I don't see the connection between the general negative and the concept of a... Here’s a French Wikipedia entry on this subject: > **[Négation en français](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9gation_en_fran%C3%A7ais)** > > Pour un article plus général, voir Négation (linguistique). > En français, on distingue syntaxiquement deux formes principales de la négation, selon qu'elle porte sur l'ensemble de la phrase ou sur un constituant : > La négation portant sur l'ensemble de la phrase se forme en ajoutant à la phrase affirmative l'adverbe ne pas ; les deux éléments de cet adverbe se placent ordinairement de part et d'autre du verbe ou de l'auxiliaire : > Lorsque le verbe est à l'infinitif, les deux éléments sont placés ... Basically what happened is that it became common to use an emphatic version of the negative in many cases. Thus one would say: Je ne marche pas - I don’t walk a step Je ne bois goutte - I don’t drink a drop Je ne mange mie - I don’t eat a crumb The reason that this became common was that the word “ne” was so quickly spoken that it became hard to hear. So these extended versions became standard for all negatives, not just emphatic ones. Eventually the other words dropped out and it became standard to use “pas” with “ne”. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/3 "2012-12-04T01:44:47Z")
O.K., the things I discussed in my last post aren’t in fact related to the question you asked, so never mind. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/4 "2012-12-04T02:35:36Z")
Actually, Wendell, I think you might be onto something. Taken literally, the negative phrases make sense with “de” – “I don’t eat a step of biscuits.”. See what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/5 "2012-12-04T11:11:01Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The reason that this became common was that the word “ne” was so quickly spoken that it became hard to hear. So these extended versions became standard for all negatives, not just emphatic ones. Eventually the other words dropped out and it became standard to use “pas” with “ne”. I had absolutely no clue that “pas” in negative sentences had any relationship with “pas” meaning “step”. In fact I had no clue about the evolution of this negative form. So, thanks for the explanation and the links. As for des vs de, since nobody well informed posted yet, I’m going to hazard a guess. Normally, “des” is used for things that can be counted, and “de” for things that can’t. For instance, “je mange des biscuits” means that I’m eating several (presumably small) cakes, while “je mange du biscuit” means that I’m eating a part of a (presumably large) cake. “Des” refers to a certain (unknown) number of things, while “de” refers to a certain (unkwnon) quantity of substance. Since the negative sentence means that I’m not eating any cake, it seems logical to use “de”. I’m not not eating 3 cakes, nor 2, nor 1, I’m not eating any quantity of cake at all. Not sure what I said makes sense, and once again, it’s only a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/6 "2012-12-04T15:43:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Since the negative sentence means that I’m not eating any cake, it seems logical to use “de”. I’m not not eating 3 cakes, nor 2, nor 1, I’m not eating any quantity of cake at all. That’s exactly what my French teacher told us. “Des” is specifically for plurals, and if you’re _not_ eating, then the quantity you’re eating is zero, which is neither plural nor singular. It can’t be counted. Similarly, in English, we say, “I’m eating some cookies,” but we don’t\* say, “I’m not eating some cookies.” We say, “I’m not eating any cookies,” or just “I’m not eating cookies.” The difference is that in French, you always need an article. \*Excepting special cases like, “I’m not eating _some_ cookies; I’m eating _all_ the cookies,” or “I’m not eating _some_ cookies, but I am eating _others_.” ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/7 "2012-12-04T18:05:09Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Actually, Wendell, I think you might be onto something. Taken literally, the negative phrases make sense with “de” – “I don’t eat a step of biscuits.”. See what I mean? This is an interesting observation. That probably has something to do with it. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I had absolutely no clue that “pas” in negative sentences had any relationship with “pas” meaning “step”. In fact I had no clue about the evolution of this negative form. So, thanks for the explanation and the links. You might be interested in John McWhorter’s book, _The Power of Babel_, which discusses the transformation of Latin into French in some detail. In particular, he discusses how this sentence: Agnoscite, sorores meae—femina ne canem loquentem quidem vidit! became this sentence : Admettez-le, mes sœurs—la femme n’a même pas vu le chien qui parle ! > [@clairobscur](#): > > Normally, “des” is used for things that can be counted, and “de” for things that can’t. For instance, “je mange des biscuits” means that I’m eating several (presumably small) cakes, while “je mange du biscuit” means that I’m eating a part of a (presumably large) cake. “Des” refers to a certain (unknown) number of things, while “de” refers to a certain (unkwnon) quantity of substance. Just to clarify, I’m not asking about what the _de_ in negative constructions _means_, but how the distinction between the affirmative and negative forms of the indefinite and partitive articles _developed_ over time. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/8 "2012-12-04T18:17:14Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > You might be interested in John McWhorter’s book, _The Power of Babel_, which discusses the transformation of Latin into French in some detail. In particular, he discusses how this sentence: > > Agnoscite, sorores meae—femina ne canem loquentem quidem vidit! > > became this sentence : > > Admettez-le, mes sœurs—la femme n’a même pas vu le chien qui parle ! Sounds like an interesting read, but what an odd sentence to use as a basis for analysis - “Face it, my sisters - the woman didn’t even see the talking dog”? Does it come from anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/9 "2012-12-04T18:57:20Z")
**Wendell Wagner** “Je ne marche pas - I don’t walk a step”. Correct translation: I don’t go along, count me out, or in another context: _je ne marche pas, je coure_ (I don’t walk, I run). In these cases _pas_ is a negative adverb and has no relation whatsoever with _pas_ “step” “Je ne bois goutte - I don’t drink a drop” The correct expression is “je ne vois goutte” (I don’t see a thing) “Je ne mange mie - I don’t eat a crumb” Again the real expression is “je ne vois mie” (I don’t see a thing). We never say “je ne mange mie”. _Mie_ in this case means “nothing at all”. _Mie_ isn’t used anymore in the sense of _miettes_ or crumbs, except in the said expression. Today’s meaning of _mie_ is the soft inner part of a loaf of bread. A bon entendeur, salut! ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/10 "2012-12-04T22:40:47Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > “Je ne marche pas - I don’t walk a step”. > > Correct translation: I don’t go along, count me out, or in another context: _je ne marche pas, je coure_ (I don’t walk, I run). In these cases _pas_ is a negative adverb and has no relation whatsoever with _pas_ “step” Not quite. The relationship between the two _pas_’s is that the noun is the origin of the adverb. This relationship is well attested. And it’s je cour_s_. 🙂 > [@Gymnopithys](#): > > “Je ne bois goutte - I don’t drink a drop” > > The correct expression is “je ne vois goutte” (I don’t see a thing) Yes and no. The French expression “je ne vois goutte” results from _goutte_ having developed a negative meaning, a negative meaning that originates in “je ne bois goutte” and other phrases where not having a single drop of something would be an appropriate thing to say. Later, _pas_ took over almost all of these other negations, leaving only things like “il ne sait que dire” and “je ne vois goutte” without it. A similar thing happened with _mie_. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/11 "2012-12-04T22:54:24Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Sounds like an interesting read, but what an odd sentence to use as a basis for analysis - “Face it, my sisters - the woman didn’t even see the talking dog”? Does it come from anywhere? McWhorter admits that the sentence is strange. As far as I’m aware, it was chosen to cram as much easy-to-explain language change as possible into a relatively short sentence, for example, the origin of the French double negation the elimination of the sounds at the end of Latin words that nonetheless live on in written French the pronunciation changes that changed the /ε/ (the e of bed) of _femina_ become the /a/ (the a of father) of _femme_ the origin of the definite article _le_ the development of the passé composé from a Latin construction that meant something completely different ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-negative-articles/642914/12 "2012-12-05T03:07:01Z")
Gymnopithys, I was talking about the earlier form of those sentences, not the current form. The point is the “pas” comes from the word for “step”. It now expresses the second half of “not”, but that’s what it came from.