# French number system - Why so odd?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 11, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406 "2002-07-11T12:49:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/1 "2002-07-11T12:49:33Z")
I know that in French, one can count up to 69 quite easily.
When we hit seventy, we suddenly start counting strangely.
10 is dix
11 is onze
60 is soixante
70 is soixante-dix (60 + 10)
71 is soixant-onze (60 + 11)
etc…
Then we get to eighty, which is…
20 is vingt
4 is quatre
80 is quatre-vingt (4 X 20)
90 is quatre-vingt-dix (4 X 20 + 10)
Why the hell is it like this? How did this come about? Are there any other number systems with a similar mechanism?
Why couldn’t 80 is but huitante?
90 could be nuefante?
Does anyone know anything about how the history of this system resulted in this complicated system?
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/2 "2002-07-11T12:53:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I know that in French, one can count up to 69 quite easily.
I got to this line and my brain syopped working.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/3 "2002-07-11T13:03:28Z")
I don’t speak French, but the higher numbers resemble the old “Four score and twenty years ago…” Eighty is four score. Ninety is four score and ten. It does seem unwieldy.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/4 "2002-07-11T14:19:40Z")
There’s nothing unusual about this. Just try learning to count to 100 in Bengali. There’s not much of a pattern. You basically have to memorise all 100 numbers.
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### Author:  [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/5 "2002-07-11T14:45:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \*
> \*\*I don’t speak French, but the higher numbers resemble the old “Four score and twenty years ago…” Eighty is four score. Ninety is four score and ten. It does seem unwieldy. \*\*
What’s the deal with this? I know I’ve heard “four score and seven” but never “four score and twenty”, which seems unnecessarily unwieldy.
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### Author:  [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/6 "2002-07-11T15:36:38Z")
In Wallonia (the French-speaking southern half of Belgium), things are more logical: ‘septante’, ‘octante’ and ‘nonante’ instead of ‘soixante-dix’, ‘quatre-vingts’ and 'quatre-vingt-dix.
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### Author:  [@DrLiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLiver)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/7 "2002-07-11T15:40:10Z")
Well it depends, on where you live, I curently live near the Quebec/Ontario borderline and in french we use the numbers as you said (the whole quebec uses it that way), however we do get a TV channel that broadcasts stuff from France and Belgium, and I noticed they were using the following terms for 80 and 90:
80 “octante”
90 “neunante”
but I guess the “quatre-vingt, etc etc” are also good, I have no idea of their origin…
Also when counting from 15 to 20 it also gets different"
15 - quinze
16 - seize
17 - dix-sept (10 and 7)
18 - dix-huit (10 and 8)
19 - dix-neuf (10 and9)
Anyone knows why it changes at between 16 and 17?? 😕
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/8 "2002-07-11T15:58:13Z")
I’m still trying to figure out why we English speakers have eleven and twelve instead of one-teen and two-teen. 🙂
I really like the Chinese counting system – simple and straightforward and easy to memorize.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/9 "2002-07-11T16:05:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DrLiver \*
> **…but I guess the “quatre-vingt, etc etc” are also good, I have no idea of their origin…**
Celtic languages, which were spoken in France (indeed, most of Europe) before Roman times, used a numbering system based on twenties.
[Interesting link with loads of info on this subject.](http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/Humanist/v05/0265.html) Some excepts:
> [@](#):
>
> Karl Menninger’s _Number Words and Number Symbols_ (thanks again, Willard!) discusses counting by twenties in numerous places. Of most interest probably are pp. 66-68 wherein he explains the counting-by-twenties in French as arising in the 11th c. with the Normans, they already having had such a system in common use, including the word ‘skor’.
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve always understood this to be a remnant of Gaulish influence on French - the system of counting in units of 20 is a feature of the Celtic languages. In Welsh, for example, 30 is ten-on-twenty, 31 is eleven-on-twenty, 40 is two-twenties, 60 is three-twenties, 80 is four-twenties (pedwar ugain, cf. French quatre-vingts).
>
> BTW, Welsh teens are fairly complicated: 11 is one-on-ten, 12 is two-ten, 13 is three-on-ten, 14 is four-on-ten, 15 is five-ten, 16 is one-on-five-ten, 17 is two-on-five-ten, 18 is two-nines, 19 is four-on-five-ten. These numbers combine with the units of twenties mentioned above, so that a number like 97 for example, is: dau ar bymtheg ar bedwar ugain (two-on-five-ten-on-four-twenties). Simple really, and I can’t understand why this system hasn’t been
> more widely adopted.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DrLiver \*
> **Anyone knows why it changes at between 16 and 17?**
Dunno. English does this too – from “twelve” to “thirteen”.
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### Author:  [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/10 "2002-07-11T18:15:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> the system of counting in units of 20 is a feature of
> the Celtic languages.
OK, why? Because of 10 fingers and 10 toes – like a Base 20 (if there is such a thing)? I’m way out of my league discussing math of even the simplest sort, but my understanding was that humans count to 10 and then start over with variations, because having 10 fingers made this the most expedient thing to do. Now it’s starting to sound like Base 10 is only the inclination of one or a few languages or cultures. Hm?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/11 "2002-07-11T18:41:37Z")
Perhaps the mistake is in assuming that all number names were created all at once with an orderly pattern in mind. I would imagine that any particularlanguage might have developed several words for a certain number and that factors other than intentional organisation influenced which number names were adopted.
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### Author:  [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/12 "2002-07-11T19:02:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ellen Cherry \*
> \*\*OK, why? Because of 10 fingers and 10 toes – like a Base 20 (if there is such a thing)? I’m way out of my league discussing math of even the simplest sort, but my understanding was that humans count to 10 and then start over with variations, because having 10 fingers made this the most expedient thing to do. Now it’s starting to sound like Base 10 is only the inclination of one or a few languages or cultures. Hm? \*\*
An excerpt from [url=“[http://www.prenhall.com/divisions/esm/app/ph-elem/multicult/html/chap3.html](http://www.prenhall.com/divisions/esm/app/ph-elem/multicult/html/chap3.html)”]this Yoruba language site[/url}:
> [@](#):
>
> **THE YORUBA NUMBER SYSTEM**
>
> In her book, _Africa Counts_, Claudia Zaslavsky describes the Yoruba number system as a complex system based on 20 (vigesimal) that uses subtraction to express numbers. For example,
>
> 35 = (2 x 20) - 5; 47 = (3 x 20) - 10 - 3; 51 = (3 x 20) - 10 + 1;
>
> 55 = (3 x 20) - 5; 67 = (4 x 20) - 10 - 3; 73 = (4 x 20) - 10 + 3;
>
> 86 = (5 x 20) - 10 - 4; 117 = (6 x 20) - 3
>
> According to the Yoruba system, the numbers from 1 to 10 have unique names. The numbers 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written additively (i.e., 11 = 10 + 1, 12 = 10 + 2, 13 = 10 + 3, 14 = 10 + 4). But the numbers from 15 through 19 are written using subtraction from 20. The numbers 21, 22, 23, and 24 are also written additively. The numbers 25 -29 are written as subtractions from 30. Each number after 30 is written as a multiple of 20 plus or minus tens and units. This pattern is repeated for numbers up to 200. After 200, the system becomes irregular. The number 20 and its multiples are considered special to the Yoruba. Here are some of their Yoruba names.
>
> 20 = ogun; 40 = ogun meji; 200 = igba; 400 = irinwo.
>
> Although this number system seems very difficult and abstract to Westerners, it is perfectly natural to the Yoruba and is still used today.
>
> As part of their trading commerce, the Yoruba had to count huge numbers of cowrie shells. When a cowrie counter had to count thousands of shells, he would empty the bag onto the floor and start **counting 20s by making 4 groups of 5 shells each**. Then the counter would make 5 groups of 20 to make 100. Then 2 groups of 100 would be pushed together to make the important 200. The subtractive principle developed from counting in this manner. The Yoruba also learned to estimate well when counting large quantities of cowrie shells.
Now, making groups of fours and fives is actually a very intuitive exercise to humans. Four or five objects are about the most a person can “count” in their head by mere sight – a pile of 7 or 8 shells are not so easy to discern from each other with a quick, instinctive glance.
The origins of the Celtic base-20 counting system may be similar to that of the Yoruba system.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/13 "2002-07-11T20:06:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> What’s the deal with this? I know I’ve heard “four score and seven” but never “four score and twenty”, which seems unnecessarily unwieldy.
I often mistype in the morning before coffee. Of course, I meant “four score and seven”.
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### Author:  [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2002, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/14 "2002-07-12T11:51:29Z")
Eep, so French isn’t that bad after all.
Just recalling that Japanese is similar, in a sense.
Thirty is san ju (3 x 10)
Thirteen is ju san (10 + 3)
Interesting. I suppose it makes more sense to me than French where they add AND multiply for one numeral.
Thanks for the responses!
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### Author:  [@mapsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mapsmith)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/15 "2002-07-14T00:25:49Z")
They are French!!!
:wally
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/16 "2002-07-14T00:35:38Z")
A friend of mine worked a switchboard once and though he’s bilingual, he complained about the French numbering. He had to type phone numbers into his board and sometimes the caller would say “quatre-” (and he would type a 4) “-vingt-” (and he would curse to himself, hit backspace and change it to an 8) “-seize” (and he would curse again, backspace again and change it to a 9).
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### Author:  [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/17 "2002-07-14T07:31:35Z")
I’m currently reading a very interesting book called _The Nothing That Is: A Natural History Of Zero_ by Robert Kaplan. One of the first uses of zero was as a placeholder in a string of written digits, such as 409. Prior to this development, people thought of numbers as sort of different sized lumps of objects, rather than as abstract numbers as we do today. For example, 409 means four hundreds plus zero tens plus nine ones. To the Romans, the same number would be CDIX, or five hundred minus one hundred plus ten minus one. I don’t know if the Romans would have said it that way out loud, but the point is that the words for numbers date from a time when people didn’t think in abstract mathematical numbers, but in terms of how many pieces of gold, or sheep, or whatever, they did or didn’t have.
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### Author:  [@Sue\_Duhnym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sue_Duhnym)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/18 "2002-07-14T07:31:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DrLiver \*
> Anyone knows why it changes at between 16 and 17?? 😕
Spanish does it too, but between 15 and 16.
14 - catorce
15 - quince
16 - dieciséis
17 - diecisiete
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/19 "2002-07-14T07:38:58Z")
Lots of numbering systems are odd. In Denmark (and probably Sweden and Norway too), not only do you say (the equivalent of) 4 and 20 (as in German), but things start to get weird at 50. To say 54 you say 4 and half third. And 64 is 4 and third. and 74 is 4 and half fourth. What these apparently mean is 4 and halfway to the third twenty and so on.
And in French Switzerland, they say septante, huitante (not the Belgium octante), and nonante. And parts of France use these or variants. Also six vingt and qunize vingt are occasionally used for 120 and 300, resp.
Why twenty and not twoty? And why thirteen and not threeteen? Not to mention fifteen.
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### Author:  [@jbird3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbird3000)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/20 "2002-07-14T09:52:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sue Duhnym \*
> \*\*
>
> Spanish does it too, but between 15 and 16.
>
> 14 - catorce
> 15 - quince
> 16 - dieciséis
> 17 - diecisiete \*\*
So does English. Eleven, twelve, then thriteen, fourteen, fifteen…
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