# French number system - Why so odd? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406 "2002-07-11T12:49:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/61 "2014-10-27T08:45:25Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > One interesting result of this is the English word “teenager.” The nearest equivalent in, say, Spanish is the cognate of “adolescent” – the Spanish numbering system doesn’t produce a handy word like this. I suppose a word _could_ have developed like \*_diesialgo_ for someone aged 16 to 19, and might have reinforced some concept of “late adolescence.” That the lowest English “-teen” number happens to coincide more or less with the onset of puberty is just a lucky coincidence. Average puberty onset has been getting earlier in recent decades; I wonder if, in some subtle way, the English-speaking mind is having trouble internalizing this fact, because it breaks the neat concept of “teenager.” Just because no-one has mentioned it yet, [traditional british sheep counting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera) rhymes seem to work in five-groups making up twenty, with unique words for one through ten, fifteen and twenty. 11-14 and 16-19 are then constructed using the five-multiple+whatever method. Using this system, those awkward young adolescent years from ten to fourteen would be ‘the dick[or dix/dik] years’, fifteen to nineteen would become ‘the bumfit years’, and relative sanity finally arrives at the age of jiggit (or figgot in Lincolnshire). The system deserves wider popularity for this reason alone. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/62 "2014-10-27T15:46:54Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Just because no-one has mentioned it yet, [traditional british sheep counting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera) rhymes seem to work in five-groups making up twenty, with unique words for one through ten, fifteen and twenty. 11-14 and 16-19 are then constructed using the five-multiple+whatever method. That might be theoretically based on the ancient Roman counting system : they, too, designated numbers as “5 and N” or “N shy of 4 tens” and so on, with a word for 20. Jiggit does sound kinda like a viginti wot went through a thresher, too :). Dates used a similar format, interestingly : they had Kalends, Nones and Ides as “reference days” each month, and other days were “3 days after the Kalends”, “a week before the next Nones” and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/63 "2014-10-28T14:26:32Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > No one shoved it down my throat. I say “quatre-vingt-onze” because that’s what my parents, and everyone else around me said, and my children count the same way because that’s the way I count. > . And as I wrote in a previous thread on the same topic, I even never realized that quatre-vingt meant…well, quatre vingts, until very late (possibly until it was pointed out to me), despite it being blatantly obvious. For me, quatre-vingt was just the number 80, and I never stopped to think about its actual meaning. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/64 "2014-10-28T14:45:51Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Using this system, those awkward young adolescent years from ten to fourteen would be ‘the dick[or dix/dik] years’, As a former horny young male preteen, I agree with this characterization. [QUOTE=Jovan] No one shoved it down my throat. I say “quatre-vingt-onze” because that’s what my parents, and everyone else around me said, and my children count the same way because that’s the way I count. [/QUOTE] Indeed counting is one of those things that is very hard _not_ to do the way you were taught growing up. I took math with some Quebecois who all, when it came time to do arithmetic, switched back to French. I expect that even if the French Academy said today, “we’re getting rid of all of this vigesimal crap” people would cling to the way they were taught. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/65 "2014-10-29T06:00:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And as I wrote in a previous thread on the same topic, I even never realized that quatre-vingt meant…well, quatre vingts, until very late (possibly until it was pointed out to me), despite it being blatantly obvious. For me, quatre-vingt was just the number 80, and I never stopped to think about its actual meaning. Exactly, it was the same thing for me too. Just as it took me a long time to realise that “aujourd’hui” starts with “on the day of.” That being said, I’m watching my own kids, who are native Japanese speakers, and they’re having a much easier time learning to count (in Japanese) than I did (in French). When I was their age being able to count to 100 was a big deal. My three year-old daughter gets bored around 45, but she could easily count to 999 if she had the stamina. The difficulty is not in the vigesimal system. That’s little more than etymology. The main problem for young learners is that you have to remember the words for 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90. That’s not really different from English. Children need to know that it’s “thirty” and not “threety,” “fifty” and not “fivety,” and once you throw exceptions in there, the whole series becomes suspect even if there is some order. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/66 "2014-10-29T16:22:19Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Just nipped me, but I still wanted to say that I don’t think English ever used a duodecimal system. Before decimalization, how many pence in a shilling? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/67 "2014-10-29T17:07:12Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Only half the numbers are odd, really. > [@Giles](#): > > Even the other half. That is very odd. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/68 "2014-10-29T17:08:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Before decimalization, how many pence in a shilling? It was 12, and there were 20 shillings in a pound. Even Americans know this. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/69 "2014-10-29T17:11:24Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Just because no-one has mentioned it yet, [traditional british sheep counting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera) rhymes seem to work in five-groups making up twenty, with unique words for one through ten, fifteen and twenty. 11-14 and 16-19 are then constructed using the five-multiple+whatever method. > > Using this system, those awkward young adolescent years from ten to fourteen would be ‘the dick[or dix/dik] years’, fifteen to nineteen would become ‘the bumfit years’, and relative sanity finally arrives at the age of jiggit (or figgot in Lincolnshire). > > The system deserves wider popularity for this reason alone. I’ve heard that some scholars suspect that the nursery rhyme “Hickory Dickory Dock” and the selection rhyme “Eeny Meeny Miney Moe” come out of traditional Celtic counting systems like that. So when people started singing “Eeny Meeny Miney Moe, catch a \ by his toe…”, they were trying to do what a more modern person would render as “One, two, three, four, behind the door…” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/70 "2014-10-29T17:24:03Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I’ve heard that some scholars suspect that the nursery rhyme “Hickory Dickory Dock” and the selection rhyme “Eeny Meeny Miney Moe” come out of traditional Celtic counting systems like that. So when people started singing “Eeny Meeny Miney Moe, catch a \ by his toe…”, they were trying to do what a more modern person would render as “One, two, three, four, behind the door…” or something like that. Sort of. “Hickory, Dickory, Dock,” is pretty clearly “eight, nine, ten” from a traditional [counting system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera) that probably came from British Celtic and spent a few hundred years as an English dialect feature (whence the rhyme). “Eeny meeny miney moe” is probably similar, but again, the only one of these that’s recognizably a number is “een” (“one”), probably with the English diminutive -ie on the end. “Een” might well be Celtic, but it could also have come from another Indo-European language. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/71 "2014-10-29T18:11:23Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It was 12, and there were 20 shillings in a pound. Even Americans know this. Exactly so the English did have at least one duodecimal system in place everyone would have been familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406/72 "2014-10-29T18:13:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Exactly so the English did have at least one duodecimal system in place everyone would have been familiar with. But the English number words, one through twelve, are decimal, which I think was the point. You can use decimal numbers to count by twelves. You can use vigesimal numbers to count by twelve, as the Welsh do when they tell time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-number-system-why-so-odd/118406.md?page=3)