# French practice of dropping first name "Joseph"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [July 8, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654 "2014-07-08T17:40:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/1 "2014-07-08T17:40:53Z")
In researching the names book (that I just published, by the way), I discovered a curious pattern in notable men of French heritage or culture from the late 19th century through about the 1970s: a given first name of Joseph that was dropped in common and public use.
There are no fewer than ten HOF hockey players, including Rocket Richard and his little brother, who have a dropped first name of Joseph. There are several Canadian PMs as well.
I am hazily assuming some French/Catholic tradition of assigning the name of St. Joseph for “protective” reasons, but using middle names in life to prevent endless confusion with other Joes.
Does anyone have a definitive explanation of this peculiarity?
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### Author:  [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/2 "2014-07-08T19:26:18Z")
I don’t have a definitive explanation (is one even possible?) but I think it may well be a Catholic thing as you suggest.
A similar thing happens in Spain, where traditionally most men were named José; and most women María. My mother’s first name is Maria but no-one ever calls her that, my father’s middle name is José but everyone knows him as Santiago, same with my uncle and grandfathers…
Extra thought: might a similar thing happen to Mohammeds? Given how common the name is in many parts of the world, I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.
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### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/3 "2014-07-08T19:42:35Z")
“Joseph” and “Mary” are baptistery names; they’re names which are given to Catholic boys and girls and then largely go unused except in particularly formal circumstances. It’s not really a first name, more like a name that identifies the person as Catholic. For example, I’m from Quebec and my name is “Joseph FIRSTNAME MIDDLENAME LASTNAME”. No one has ever called me Joseph except in military paperwork and on my dog tags. My social security card, credit card, bar license and the vast majority of other paperwork doesn’t include it.
And yes, I guess this means that some people are called “Joseph Joseph” and “Mary Mary” but I’m not sure about that.
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### Author:  [@xnylder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xnylder)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/4 "2014-07-08T20:05:03Z")
In francophone Quebec, the concepts of “first name” and “middle name” are a little murky. According to the francophone relatives and friends I have, a person is given several first names of which one is chosen for daily use. Boys usually have “Joseph” somewhere in that string and girls have “Marie”, for biblical reasons. For example, as mentioned earlier, the hockey player Joseph Henri Maurice “Rocket” Richard was called Maurice. It’s not so much that the “Joseph” is dropped, but that every name but “Maurice” is left out.
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### Author:  [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/5 "2014-07-08T20:27:54Z")
> [@xnylder](#):
>
> For example, as mentioned earlier, the hockey player Joseph Henri Maurice “Rocket” Richard was called Maurice. It’s not so much that the “Joseph” is dropped, but that every name but “Maurice” is left out.
Well, what’s weirder, as I found in doing the research, is things like -
[ul]
[li] Joseph Henri Maurice “Rocket” Richard… and[/li][li] Joseph Henri “Pocket Rocket” Richard. (He was 3 inches shorter.)[/li][/ul]
Their _en-famille_ names were Maurice and Henri.
Book’s available on Kindle now. (_plug plug plug…_) PM for info until I figure out how to list it here without cross-linking my identities…
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### Author:  [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/6 "2014-07-08T21:16:45Z")
> [@xnylder](#):
>
> In francophone Quebec, the concepts of “first name” and “middle name” are a little murky. According to the francophone relatives and friends I have, a person is given several first names of which one is chosen for daily use. Boys usually have “Joseph” somewhere in that string and girls have “Marie”, for biblical reasons. For example, as mentioned earlier, the hockey player Joseph Henri Maurice “Rocket” Richard was called Maurice. It’s not so much that the “Joseph” is dropped, but that every name but “Maurice” is left out.
Honestly, I thought it was this way for all Catholics.
My _baptistère_ (baptistery) does include Joseph, as well as the first names of my father and godfather, and the 2 first names my parents really chose for me; in real life I only use one of the latter.
The \*baptistère \*is replaced, nowadays, by a government-issued birth certificate which includes all the same names.
My ID cards, driver’s license and passport show only my usual name. Flying licenses include all names, as do military ID cards IIRC.
ETA: I don’t think this is normally done for kids nowadays, except maybe for very religious families.
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### Author:  [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/7 "2014-07-08T21:30:38Z")
A similar convention held in [Germany](http://www.kerchner.com/germname.htm) and was maintained in some Protestant areas for a while.
You sometimes run into the George Foreman problem in genealogy where all the sons are (at first look) named “Johann”.
While not common in Scandinavia, some families descended from German trader families continued it there, so one has to be careful in knowing that a person might be known by two different “first names” in the records.
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### Author:  [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/8 "2014-07-08T22:24:09Z")
As a non-Catholic I’m a bit foggy about first name practices. Are Catholic parents still encouraged (if not required) to use the first names of saints for their children or is that something the Church has gotten more lenient on since Vatican II? Are Old Testament biblical names regarded the same as Christian saint names and thus acceptable?
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### Author:  [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/9 "2014-07-08T23:22:58Z")
I was told by a French-Canadian that when the baby is born, the Father quickly gives it a name and gets it baptized. Later, when Mother and child are doing well, the Mother gives it the second name, which becomes the familiar name. This is coming from a man born in the 50’s
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/10 "2014-07-08T23:41:58Z")
There was a Catholic family down the street from us when we lived in Queens, and they had eight or nine kids, three boys (one set of twins) the rest girls. The girls were all named Mary Something, but none of them were called “Mary,” although one was called “MJ.” They were all Kate, Terry, Anne, Celie, whatever, so I guess they were Mary Katherine, Mary Theresa, Mary Anne, Mary Cecelia-- I’m not sure what MJ was, or why she wasn’t called “Joan,” or whatever her middle name was.
I don’t remember how it was that I found out they were all named Mary. They went to Catholic school, so I didn’t go to school with any of them. I think it may have been Girl Scout camp. Two of them were less than a year apart, and right around my age, so we ended up in summer camps (except when I went to Jewish camp, of course), Red Cross swimming, and softball, and other things together.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/11 "2014-07-08T23:51:51Z")
> [@K364](#):
>
> I was told by a French-Canadian that when the baby is born, the Father quickly gives it a name and gets it baptized.
And most fathers choose Joseph after being whacked by the priest when they tried to baptize their boys Rocket. “Merde, just call him Joe, then.” Makes sense to me.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/12 "2014-07-09T01:20:09Z")
> [@NDP](#):
>
> As a non-Catholic I’m a bit foggy about first name practices. Are Catholic parents still encouraged (if not required) to use the first names of saints for their children or is that something the Church has gotten more lenient on since Vatican II? Are Old Testament biblical names regarded the same as Christian saint names and thus acceptable?
I just looked this up, because I knew the first name doesn’t have to be a saint’s name - my daughter’s isn’t. But she was called by her middle name (which is a saint’s name) at her baptism. Turns out until 1983 or so, the child had to have a Christian name. Now, it just has to be a name that is “not foreign to Christian sensibility”
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/13 "2014-07-09T01:40:09Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> I just looked this up, because I knew the first name doesn’t have to be a saint’s name - my daughter’s isn’t. But she was called by her middle name (which is a saint’s name) at her baptism. Turns out until 1983 or so, the child had to have a Christian name. Now, it just has to be a name that is “not foreign to Christian sensibility”
What is a “Christian” name? Is it a saint’s name, or is it any name in the bible? Before 1983, could you name a Catholic child Zipporah, Itamar, or Ezekiel?
I’m curious, because I know that the New England Puritans used to scour the Tanakh for names in order to have names that were biblical, but not “Romish.” You also find virtues as given names for Puritans, like “Patience,” and “Verity,” but you rarely find apostolic names, even though they were biblical, because they were also saint’s names. Few Puritans named Matthew or James. Plenty of Jacobs, though; they seemed not to be aware that “James” was a translation of “Jacob.”
Does “Not foreign to Christian sensibility” mean that trendy names like Tiffany get nixed, particularly since there’s a certain sense of avariciousness attached to being named after a store that sells $60 teething rings? or does the name have to be something like “Snake”?
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### Author:  [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/14 "2014-07-09T01:49:13Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#):
>
> …
>
> I am hazily assuming some French/Catholic tradition of assigning the name of St. Joseph for “protective” reasons, but using middle names in life to prevent endless confusion with other Joes.
>
> Does anyone have a definitive explanation of this peculiarity?
Your reasoning for going by middle name would be the most logical, especially among brothers, who would otherwise both be named “Joseph X”.
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### Author:  [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/15 "2014-07-09T01:54:44Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#):
>
> What is a “Christian” name? Is it a saint’s name, or is it any name in the bible? Before 1983, could you name a Catholic child Zipporah, Itamar, or Ezekiel?
>
> …
>
> Does “Not foreign to Christian sensibility” mean that trendy names like Tiffany get nixed, particularly since there’s a certain sense of avariciousness attached to being named after a store that sells $60 teething rings? or does the name have to be something like “Snake”?
“Not foreign” means that a Catholic should not name his child “Mohammed” or “Vishnu” for example.
A Christian name could be any one of the Saints, or a biblical name, as you surmise. The practice began when one of the early Pope’s was a good Christian man named “Jupiter”; “His Holiness, Pope Jupiter I,” just didn’t seem right to him, so he changed it following his election.
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/16 "2014-07-09T01:56:34Z")
> [@Heracles](#):
>
> Honestly, I thought it was this way for all Catholics.
Probably only in certain cultural traditions. I know plenty of (Australian) Catholics who don’t have a variation of Joseph or Mary in their name.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/17 "2014-07-09T02:17:58Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#):
>
> What is a “Christian” name? Is it a saint’s name, or is it any name in the bible? Before 1983, could you name a Catholic child Zipporah, Itamar, or Ezekiel?
As far as I can tell, it could be a saint’s name, or a Biblical name, or a name such as Grace or Faith or Christian or Chastity ( some of which are no doubt saint’s names, but you get the idea)
> [@](#):
>
> Does “Not foreign to Christian sensibility” mean that trendy names like Tiffany get nixed, particularly since there’s a certain sense of avariciousness attached to being named after a store that sells $60 teething rings? or does the name have to be something like “Snake”?
Nope, Tiffany,Jessica, Ashley, Todd ,etc are fine- they’re not Christian , but they’re not offensive to Christians. For all I know , Snake is fine. “Lucifer” would not be and I wouldn’t think “Death” or “Stalin” would be either.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/18 "2014-07-09T02:26:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#):
>
> Probably only in certain cultural traditions. I know plenty of (Australian) Catholics who don’t have a variation of Joseph or Mary in their name.
Lots of Italian Catholics don’t have it either.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/19 "2014-07-09T02:41:05Z")
**dropmom** had to be baptized by her middle name because Ruth was “an Old Testament name.” Her parents had to be married in the sacristy because my grandfather wasn’t Catholic, but those incidents are 90 and 125 years old and I don’t know if they are remotely applicable now. My pastor was okay baptizing a girl Lilith (“What a pretty name! And Lilith on Cheers was so pretty.” Do some research, people! Adam dumped her for a reason.\* :mad:), but he’s a heretic so I understand.
-
- You may say that she dumped Adam, but that’s not the story he told at the Eden Bar and Grill.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 9, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/20 "2014-07-09T02:45:07Z")
> [@runningdude](#):
>
> The practice began when one of the early Pope’s was a good Christian man named “Jupiter”; “His Holiness, Pope Jupiter I,” just didn’t seem right to him, so he changed it following his election.
A nitpick, but his name was Mercury.
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