# French practice of dropping first name "Joseph"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654 "2014-07-08T17:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/41 "2016-09-29T19:01:05Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Nope, Tiffany,Jessica, Ashley, Todd ,etc are fine- they’re not Christian , but they’re not offensive to Christians. For all I know , Snake is fine. “Lucifer” would not be and I wouldn’t think “Death” or “Stalin” would be either. Per Wikipedia, Tiffany is the English version of “Theophania”, which means Epiphany, which is Christian. > **[Tiffany (given name)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_(given_name))** > > Tiffany /ˈtɪfəni/ is a primarily English feminine form of the Greek given name Theophania. It was formerly often given to children born on the feast of Theophania, that is, Epiphany. The equivalent Greek male name is Theophanes (Θεοφάνης), commonly shortened to Phanis (Φάνης) and the female is Theophania (Θεοφανία) or Theophano (Θεοφανώ), colloquially Phani (Φανή). > The name was popular in the United States from the 1970s to early 1990s. Between 1980 and 1991 the number of babies named Tiffany bo... This reminds me of a girl I tutored in the 1980’s who was annoyed because she couldn’t find what her name meant in a book of names a friend of hers had. I happened to know that “Stacy” was short for “Anastasia”, which means resurrection. (Which her Catholic family hadn’t known, Stacy’s mom told me.) I went to high school with three sisters: Maria Elaine, Maria Elizabeth, and Maria Elvira. They were from the Philippines, and only used their middle names. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/42 "2016-09-29T22:06:28Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > 80% of men in the English high middle ages were named from about 5 names > [@Princhester](#): > > Interesting. So what were the key names in the high middle ages, and can you give examples of names comprising phrases from the Bible? I’ve spent the last several years reading European history, and after a while it seemed that every medieval German king/potentate was named either Henry or Otto. In France, it was Henry, Charles, or Louis. Not just kings, but the nobility as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/43 "2016-09-29T23:14:02Z")
I remember reading a book about the French court in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries in which the author remarked upon the fact that nearly all the women were named Marguerite or Jeanne. One woman stood out because she was named Mahaut. (Just Googled her, and it seems she was also called Mathilde.) ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/44 "2016-09-30T02:56:32Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > I went to high school with three sisters: Maria Elaine, Maria Elizabeth, and Maria Elvira. They were from the Philippines, and only used their middle names. In this situation, Elaine, Elizabeth and Elvira are not considered middle names in the same way as American middle names. Rather, each girl’s name is more like a compound name with the second part of the name being the more important identifier. I hope I don’t sound touchy about this but I live this situation and have to explain it more frequently than I’d like. With a name like Maria Elisa it’s a little tiring to have to tell people that Elisa is **not** my middle name (with the connotation that the middle name is a dispensable, less important part of the name) It’s an essential part of my name, even more important than my “first” name. My sister Maria Teresa has even added a hyphen to her name because she got tired of being called Maria. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/45 "2016-09-30T06:26:54Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Per Wikipedia, Tiffany is the English version of “Theophania”, which means Epiphany, which is Christian. > [Tiffany (given name) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_(given_name)) Theophany doesn’t mean Epiphany, Theophany is also called Epiphany. Jus sayin’. Also, fixed your link. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/46 "2016-09-30T11:59:27Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > In this situation, Elaine, Elizabeth and Elvira are not considered middle names in the same way as American middle names. Rather, each girl’s name is more like a compound name with the second part of the name being the more important identifier. SIS… ehr… Sibling! You may like [this explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19015830&postcount=319), which for some reason known only to the board gremlins happened to take place in the Work Rants. Signed, My Name Is Not María, Damnit ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/47 "2016-09-30T14:20:56Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > Latinos don’t do it much now, but a couple of generations ago many families had Maria for all the daughters, like Maria Lourdes, Maria Teresa, Maria Cristina (to cite just a few of the names in our family) > > You saw this in Austria as well, Marie Antoinette was originally Maria Antonia before she moved to France. Her sisters were Maria Amalia, Maria Anna, etc. And quite a number of men were Jose Maria (but a Latina woman would be Maria Jose) > > There is even a standard abbreviation for the Maria in names, for example Ma. Luisa meaning Maria Luisa without having to spell out the whole Maria, or Luis Ma., Jose Ma., etc. My father actually wrote his name as Jose Ma. Norberto Lastname. > > > [@Steophan](#): > > > > This form existed in Ireland at least, although I’ve no idea how widespread it was. The person I’m aware of is [Joseph Mary Plunkett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Plunkett), one of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising. The great German poet of the early 20th century, Rilke: Rainer Maria Rilke ([Rainer Maria Rilke - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Maria_Rilke)). His middle name was/is pretty well part of his ID (aka the US Presidential Assassin Onomastic Anomaly), i.e. it sounds odd to refer to him without it. As opposed to a) having it tucked away in a birth certificate somewhere, because it’s weird or unfashionable, or b) as in this thread, so common as to be dropped in most casees. It’s interesting and perhaps somewhat explanatory that Joseph Mary Plunkett and Rainer Maria Rilke have the same pleasant scansion. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/48 "2016-09-30T14:39:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > SIS… ehr… Sibling! You may like [this explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19015830&postcount=319), which for some reason known only to the board gremlins happened to take place in the Work Rants. > > Signed, > My Name Is Not María, Damnit Coincidentally, I just met a Columbian woman who said her name was Maria-Santa, which I stumbled over twice–I mean Santa Maria is a thing, but I thought I missed the name _after_ Santa, which would be correct Spanish grammar (but not Latin, Maria Sancta, I believe)–so maybe there’s the reason. Her two young children were in the car, and to cover my embarrassment, actually confirm I understood what she was saying, and to make them laugh, I said “like Maria-Santa Claus.” I told her it sounded strange to _my_ ears, and said do people call her Maria, and may I call her that (being lazy and trying to remember who she was if I ever met her again). She said “sure,” but now I’m wondering if only a boor or a gringo (whatever Columbians call it) would ask that, and she said yes because we would see each other again perhaps never anyway. The conversation was in Spanish, if that helps or adds to the cultural instinctive nature of her response, and that I would understand it perfectly correctly as one or the other. (That is, the equivalent of when I’m talking about Jewish names, history, or whatever, I’ll mention my name is Leopold Moshe Bloom, but that’s only to God and on my ketubah [Jewish marriage license/contract].) Nava, any help? ETA: by **gkster** cited just above, and once before, I would take it as her name for common use would be “Santa,” dropping a/the ubiquitous “Maria” is Spanish–which would leave me with “Santa,” leaving me just where I was, with an adjective crying out for a lost pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/49 "2016-09-30T14:54:13Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I just looked this up, because I knew the first name doesn’t have to be a saint’s name - my daughter’s isn’t. But she was called by her middle name (which is a saint’s name) at her baptism. Turns out until 1983 or so, the child had to have a Christian name. Now, it just has to be a name that is “not foreign to Christian sensibility” > [@runningdude](#): > > “Not foreign” means that a Catholic should not name his child “Mohammed” or “Vishnu” for example. > > A Christian name could be any one of the Saints, or a biblical name, as you surmise. The practice began when one of the early Pope’s was a good Christian man named “Jupiter”; “His Holiness, Pope Jupiter I,” just didn’t seem right to him, so he changed it following his election. So, how does the Church officially feel about common names that are of distinctly pagan origin? I’m thinking about Diana, Helen, Jason, Homer, Hector etc. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/50 "2016-09-30T14:56:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > SIS… ehr… Sibling! You may like [this explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19015830&postcount=319), which for some reason known only to the board gremlins happened to take place in the Work Rants. > > Signed, > My Name Is Not María, Damnit Nava’s post is so clear, and the topic/question is worth spelling out here, and comes up every now and then in GQ, that I take the liberty of excerpting it from the Pit, where I must say it is the most rational post I have ever come across in my (brief) forays into that bizarre neck of the SD woods: Allow me to introduce you to a Spanish actress whose lastnames happen to have the same structure as mine: Pilar López de Ayala We even share the problem of having a multiword baptismal name, hers being María del Pilar. It’s one name although multiple words and she evidently prefers to use “Pilar”, among its many possible abbreviations. The first lastname is López de Ayala, from her father. The second is Arroyo, from her mother. The portuguese put the mother’s lastname first, which might be where the British (I understand it was specifically the Scottish) got the idea to start using the mother’s maiden name as a middle name. She’ll use López de Ayala in any context in which she’s not required by law to use both (it’s only a requirement on supermegaofficial documents such as contracts, civil registry certificates or Spanish-government-issued ID). It is highly likely to be abbreviated to López, unless there is already a López around; in that case it could end up being Ayala instead. And if she worked in IT like I do she’d be up to here of asking “can I get a username of PLopez01 or PAyala01 rather than PLopezdeAyala? Please?” So: contract in Spain, Pilar López de Ayala Arroyo contract in a country where people only use a lastname, Pilar López de Ayala may indeed introduce herself as Pilar López, both because the name is a mouthful and because those structures trigger some really strange reactions; people tend to think it means you’re nobility as in “grande de España”, when actually all it means is that way back when there were so many people with the first part that the other two words got added. may get first lastname or even both of them scrunched up into lopezdeayala or lopezdeayalaarroyo when flying. May also have received a plane ticket adressed to Ms. De (happened to me once). Highly unlikely to be able to use the autocheckin feature, if it requires reading the passport or other ID, due to that loss of spaces. [ETA: I hand-copied this over (I didn’t know how to get a bulletin-board handled quote from two different threads), so accenting has been mangled by the interpreter, and I don’t have time to fix it. Sorry, but correct orthography is in cite.] ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/51 "2016-09-30T15:09:19Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > … > > Nava, any help? > > ETA: by **gkster** cited just above, and once before, I would take it as her name for common use would be “Santa,” dropping a/the ubiquitous “Maria” is Spanish–which would leave me with “Santa,” leaving me just where I was, with an adjective crying out for a lost pronoun. Since I personalized the query, which of course is still part of the free-for-all, I feel remiss in not asking “gkster, any help?”–particularly given the personal vehemence of her post–so, if you answer this, gkster, be gentle. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/52 "2016-09-30T16:29:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Nava, any help? > > ETA: by **gkster** cited just above, and once before, I would take it as her name for common use would be “Santa,” dropping a/the ubiquitous “Maria” is Spanish–which would leave me with “Santa,” leaving me just where I was, with an adjective crying out for a lost pronoun. Whichever name people give you first is usually the form they prefer (in a business setting, they may be required to give first whatever shows in their ID), but if you ask to use another one and they say it’s ok, then it’s ok. If she happened to hate Maria, she would have said so. I’ve ended up learning how to tweak the spelling of my name so locals will be able to pronounce it both recognizably and without choking in several languages. Those spellings do not usually match my ID, but they work. To multiquote from different threads it’s pretty much the same as to multiquote in a single thread, go to one post, multiquote, go to another, multiquote, go on… and end with quote. The board will point out you’re quoting posts from other threads, do you want to include those other posts or remove them? Say you want to include them, say “ta-daaaaa!” Re. those names “of evidently non-Christian origin”, a lot of them have grown saints by now. As did, oh… Mark, Matthew, John, Stephen, Mary; quite a few of the most prominently-Christian names happen to be Jewish ones. Apparently the feast of St Diana is on June 8th. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/53 "2016-09-30T17:19:42Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/54 "2016-09-30T17:21:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Whichever name people give you first is usually the form they prefer (in a business setting, they may be required to give first whatever shows in their ID), but if you ask to use another one and they say it’s ok, then it’s ok. If she happened to hate Maria, she would have said so. > > … Any reactions/anecdotes to the name, even if only a secondary additive of “Santa” sans object? Rare? Weird? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/55 "2016-09-30T17:27:14Z")
If that’s the whole name, then it’s that the object is Maria. 1.- It may have been suggested by the Latin form, as a direct conversion 2.- In Spanish, the noun-adjective order is often inverted in poetry or for emphasis 3.- Santa María as a baptismal name wouldn’t have been acceptable (it sounds as if you’re saying that the baby herself is a saint), but by inverting the order it becomes clear that the “Santa” refers to “Mary” and not to the living woman who bears the compound name. There are other names which are kind of unusual in structure: for example, Dulce nombre de María (usually abbreviated Dulce), “Mary’s sweet name”, its feast September 12th. On one hand the name still makes reference to Mary, and on the other its main noun isn’t María… it’s “name”. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/56 "2016-09-30T17:36:00Z")
Thanks. The first two occurred to me; the third I never thought of, and is particularly interesting in this thread because of the cultural nexus. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/57 "2016-09-30T17:51:57Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Thanks. The first two occurred to me; the third I never thought of, and is particularly interesting in this thread because of the cultural nexus. But let me throw in, although switching national but not broad religious contexts: Jill St. John and Eva Marie Saint, who would really fit in. Actually, I just now checked before posting (_mirabile dictu_) both are actually red herrings in terms of your points–and I honestly was sort of vaguely bothers/curious about their names and was reminded by your comments. Eva Marie Saint was an Eva Marie something who married a Mr. Saint. Jill St. John, speakingof cultural nexuses (is that a word?), is a made up name by a woman (or her manager) with what I am guessing is a “too-Jewish” name for her profession as star: a daughter of a née Goldberg and an Oppenheim. [You know about the psychiatrist John O’Malley who moved to NY and changed his name to Goldberg for professional reasons?] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/58 "2016-09-30T20:03:35Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > In Britain a christian name is any forename[s] with which one is baptised, and used in a general sense for any forename unless of a religion not christian. It’s used in the general sense even for non-Christians. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/59 "2016-09-30T22:38:18Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > The great German poet of the early 20th century, Rilke: Rainer Maria Rilke ([Rainer Maria Rilke - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Maria_Rilke)). His middle name was/is pretty well part of his ID (aka the US Presidential Assassin Onomastic Anomaly), i.e. it sounds odd to refer to him without it. As opposed to a) having it tucked away in a birth certificate somewhere, because it’s weird or unfashionable, or b) as in this thread, so common as to be dropped in most casees. > > It’s interesting and perhaps somewhat explanatory that Joseph Mary Plunkett and Rainer Maria Rilke have the same pleasant scansion. I was going to add actor Klaus Maria Brandauer, but wiki says “Took his acting name from his mother, whose maiden name was Maria Brandauer”. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654/60 "2016-10-03T06:46:08Z")
Nava, we are indeed siblings when it comes to name issues. I have a “de X” last name, like “de Leon”, which can be a puzzle for many, including the post office and automated mailing lists. (I’ve received junk mail addressed simply to “Maria De”) At one point I thought I might marry a man whose last name was also structured like “Lopez de Ayala”. It turned out that we were not really compatible in terms of personality, while we were even less compatible in terms of merging names. Right now I hyphenate my birth name with my husband’s (think “de Leon-Brown”) which is a little awkward, but it’s nothing compared to the confusion that the combination of de Leon and Lopez de Ayala would create especially in a non-Spanish speaking country. Leo Bloom, about Maria Santa (minor nitpick, the Maria Santa you met is Colombian, not Columbian). Years ago I knew a girl from Argentina whose name was Santa (without the Maria) I didn’t really think about the meaning back then, but I wonder whether in her case it meant just simply “Holy” or “female saint” As for the Maria in the compound names being used or not, I’ve known women who dropped the Maria, while others did use both names and didn’t drop it (like Maria Jose) or women who used a shortened combination (Maria Lourdes becoming Marilu) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-practice-of-dropping-first-name-joseph/692654.md?page=2)