# French President Sarkozy Wants to Ban Burkas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699 "2009-06-23T09:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/41 "2009-06-23T18:50:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I saw one commentator refer to it as “Paternalism fighting paternalism.” Heh, interesting way to put it, but it also rings very true. God knows those little brown women can’t be trusted to liberate themselves. Let’s not worry their hidden little heads about it, heh ? 😉 [QUOTE=tagos] Do get back to us with more of this analogy. Get back to us when you are born a nun and Christianity penalises you, up to and including death, as an apostate for stopping being one. [/QUOTE] Yeah… do get back to me when you hear about a stoning in France. [QUOTE=linty fresh] By calling for the banning of the burqa, Sarkozy isn’t banning the oppression. He’s just getting it out of the faces of “decent” (read “non-Muslim”) French people, so they can pretend it doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE] Slam dunk in one, set and checkmate. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/42 "2009-06-23T18:56:40Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Could it be the period under the Shah when the veil was banned ? Could that be when Iranian women tasted liberation ? Iran was the first country to outlaw the veil, in 1936. However the enforcement of this was brutal and heavy-handed, sparking enormous outrage. When opposition to the Shah started seriously building in the 1970’s, it thus became a symbol of authoritarian abuse and young college women took to veiling themselves as political protest. **Tom Tildrum** ’s quote of this being “paternalism fighting paternalism” is quite apropos. I’m not a fan of veiling either, but these sorts of legislation are ridiculous and as the Iranian example demonstrates, can be self-defeating as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/43 "2009-06-23T19:10:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Iran was the first country to outlaw the veil, in 1936. However the enforcement of this was brutal and heavy-handed, sparking enormous outrage. When opposition to the Shah started seriously building in the 1970’s, it thus became a symbol of authoritarian abuse and young college women took to veiling themselves as political protest. > > **Tom Tildrum** ’s quote of this being “paternalism fighting paternalism” is quite apropos. I’m not a fan of veiling either, but these sorts of legislation are ridiculous and as the Iranian example demonstrates, can be self-defeating as well. One of the things that is fascinating about the overthrow of the Shah is how progressive liberal socialists and conservative theocrats united in the purpose - then the theocrats managed to grab power and shoved their compatriots in arms under the bus. The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/44 "2009-06-23T19:22:50Z")
Back in England, I ended up as friends with various members of the Iranian Communist Party. They always talked about how they felt Iran was a tragedy and had it been treated correctly after the revolution, the whole history of the region could have been very different. My response to them was that, however unfortunate it was, at that time groups with “Communist” in their names weren’t going to get a very sympathetic hearing from the West, however moderate their policies in fact were… ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/45 "2009-06-23T20:39:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” > > This could not be any more cut and dried. Yeah, but… I can think of a certain number of religious practices that the state doesn’t tolerate: genital mutilation, ritual drug use, Christian Science healing in some cases, etc. It’s all a gray area, quite frankly. And France has different views from the United States on the question of church and state. Where the U.S. constitution proclaims that the government shall not interfere with religion, in France it’s somewhat the reverse – religion shall not interfere with government. In what the state marks out as its realm, secularism is a rule with few qualifiers. The first sentence of the first article of the French constitution in fact says, _“La France est une République indivisible, **laïque** , démocratique et sociale.”_ Difference of emphasis rather than substance, maybe. But it’s a distinction nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/46 "2009-06-23T21:06:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s not intended to apply here, Here? > [@](#): > > and if a woman wearing a veil were charged under a law like that, the city would end up facing a civil rights lawsuit. If someone looks at me funny I can file a lawsuit. That doesn’t mean it has merit. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/47 "2009-06-23T21:30:41Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I also doubt going shopping in a gimp suit or dressing your woman up as a naked dog with a spiked collar and parading her down the street would be considered within the law. [It’s a strange world out there.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/7204543.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/48 "2009-06-23T21:59:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” > > This could not be any more cut and dried. You don’t think… > [@](#): > > We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. …could be argued to be in conflict with this practice and supersede the First Amendment? I think it’s pretty clear that the bans against polygamy are a clear example of laws which contradict that statement. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/49 "2009-06-23T22:01:55Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You don’t think… > > …could be argued to be in conflict with this practice and supersede the First Amendment? The Declaration of Independence isn’t a legal document. It’s a philosophical one. The freedoms in the preamble are not guaranteed as they stand. The DoI can in no way “supersede” the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Honey6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c57346/32.png) [@Honey6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey6)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/50 "2009-06-23T23:21:49Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Do get back to us with more of this analogy. Get back to us when you are born a nun and Christianity penalises you, up to and including death, as an apostate for stopping being one. Thumbs up. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/51 "2009-06-23T23:25:26Z")
Doesn’t this make it just that more likely that these women who normally wear burqas – by their own wills or not – will not leave their homes? While some may be willing to adopt the _niqab_ (?), others may not. I’m guessing that alot will just be forbidden to go out in public, or simply choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/52 "2009-06-23T23:31:24Z")
I’m trying to imagine the exact wording of such a law. How does one legally define what a burqa is, and how much of a change to it must you make before it is no longer a burqua? X% of the face may not be covered? Can you wear a hat with a flap that you can fling over your face? Could a woman wear a really droopy sombrero and not violate the law? Certainly it would be ridiculous to try and outlaw long flowing skirts or long, loose sleeves and gloves to cover the hands. Outlaw the burqa and something else will take its place. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/53 "2009-06-23T23:33:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Doesn’t this make it just that more likely that these women who normally wear burqas – by their own wills or not – will not leave their homes? While some may be willing to adopt the _niqab_ (?), others may not. I’m guessing that alot will just be forbidden to go out in public, or simply choose not to. They’re not trying to cure the disease - they’re trying to cure the symptom. ---
**Author:** ![Honey6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c57346/32.png) [@Honey6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey6)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/54 "2009-06-23T23:37:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” > > This could not be any more cut and dried. > > Sarkozy is right about the meaning of the burka, but this is a sleazy play on anti-Muslim sentiment, and it’s every bit as stupid and disqueting as the headscarf ban from a few years ago. Europe’s cranky old man confrontation with Islam continues unabated, unfortunately. “Free” is not the word I think of when seeing a woman in burka. Or rather, _not_ seeing a woman in burka. No wait, \*not seeing a **woman** \*in burka. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/55 "2009-06-23T23:55:21Z")
Does the law cover a man wearing it? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/56 "2009-06-24T00:01:40Z")
Of course you people know they are completely naked under the burqa. It is actually very liberating. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/57 "2009-06-24T00:03:25Z")
One of my neighbors wears a burka. And stiletto heels. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/58 "2009-06-24T00:10:39Z")
In the US, we’d have to make an exemption for Halloween. Typical kid’s ghost costume = white burka. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/59 "2009-06-24T00:13:29Z")
Did anyone read the full article. It’s not just the French: > [@](#): > > France is not the only European Union country to have considered banning the burka. Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a ban in 2005, although the government of the time was defeated in elections before it could pass legislation to outlaw the garment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/60 "2009-06-24T00:22:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m trying to imagine the exact wording of such a law. How does one legally define what a burqa is, and how much of a change to it must you make before it is no longer a burqua? X% of the face may not be covered? Can you wear a hat with a flap that you can fling over your face? Could a woman wear a really droopy sombrero and not violate the law? Certainly it would be ridiculous to try and outlaw long flowing skirts or long, loose sleeves and gloves to cover the hands. > > Outlaw the burqa and something else will take its place. Hell, I practically wore a burqa when I was waiting for the bus this past winter. > [@Honey6](#): > > “Free” is not the word I think of when seeing a woman in burka. Or rather, _not_ seeing a woman in burka. No wait, \*not seeing a **woman** \*in burka. And yet, you cannot FORCE freedom on someone. They need to take it on their own. That’s not freedom. You’re merely trading one form of tyranny for another. **begbert2** , that’s my point. Ban the burqa? Fine, something else will take its place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699.md?page=4)