# French President Sarkozy Wants to Ban Burkas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699 "2009-06-23T09:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/161 "2009-06-27T20:33:07Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > No-one is “covering women” except the women themselves. There is no evil third party forcing women to cover up (and if there is there are plenty of laws regarding threatening behaviour and domestic violence that can be used). This is a fundamental question of women’s (and everyone elses rights). > > Forcing a women \*\*to \*\*wear a Burqa in public is an unacceptable violation of her rights, but so is forcing a **not to** wear a Burqa in public. If the latter is acceptable under the first amendment, SO IS THE FORMER. > . I don’t have cites and aren’t sure if they exist for this matter, but I feel completely confident burkas are a manifestation of a culture governed by domineering male fanatics. So no, I don’t see it as a free-will choice. Like everything thing else, this will ultimately be decided by a complex interplay of law, tradition, charismatic leaders, catchy slogans, and common sense. Common sense varies from culture to culture and era to era, but mine is that you don’t allow people to be marginalized and dominated to respect an abstract principle. I see the burka as a manifestation of domination and marginalization. I hope most people’s common sense aligns with mine. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/162 "2009-06-27T23:42:44Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Well, it is a nice thought, but another nice thought is: \*The devil is in the details. \* > > The “third party” being injured is, of course, the intimidated women being shut off from the outside world. That’s another debate. Women who are “intimidated” should get the full protection of the law. You are simply assuming that every women who dress like that is doing it out of fear, this being the SDMB, you should provide statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/163 "2009-06-28T01:32:23Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > You are simply assuming that every women who dress like that is doing it out of fear, this being the SDMB, you should provide statistics. Well, really I’m assuming that **most** women who dress like that are doing it out of either fear or extremely oppressive social pressure. And I’m also assuming that those who are doing it in a fairly informed manner wouldn’t have serious problems with a slightly less socially isolating manner of attire. But… here is the ritual of the cites. I wasn’t expecting much and I wasn’t disappointed in that regard. An article From the NY Times reporting on a [Gallup survey](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html?ex=1307419200&en=e2d514a70cc63246&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss). The head is _Muslim Women Don’t See Themselves as Oppressed, Survey Finds._ (However, it’s a bogus headline since a “strong majority” believe they should be allowed to vote and work outside the home.) _“Ms. Mogahed, who was born in Egypt and wears a Islamic head scarf, rejected the idea that Muslim women had been brainwashed by the dominant male culture, citing as proof the fact that women freely stated that they deserved certain rights.”_ However, in Pakistan 32% of women don’t think they should be allowed to make their own voting decisions. ## The survey reveals that the concealing garments aren’t an important concern for Muslim women and I can certainly understand that. They’ve got other things on their minds. * * * From a Turkish newspaper in 2007: > **[MEMRI Blogs](https://www.memri.org/blog)** > > MEMRI's archive of Middle East reports includes translations, Special Dispatches, and Inquiry and Analysis papers from and about media and events in the region on a wide range of topics, from 1998 to the present. 3_0.6% of the polled women said that they do not cover their heads; and out of the 69.4% who do, 51.9% use traditional headscarf (that leaves some of the hair, throat and neck showing), 16.2% wear turban (that covers all hair, throat and neck), and 1.3% wear burqa and veil. Head cover is seen more as women get older and is more prevalent among the less educated but turban is high among young and educated women. Burqa wearers are the least educated and mostly illiterate…_ Well, we don’t know if burka wearers in France are mostly illiterate. If they are then I personally won’t place much value on any survey that says they are happy and covering themselves by their own choice. And if burka wearers are a tiny minority in Muslim countries (1.3% in Turkey) then the info in the Gallup poll above is pretty meaningless regarding burka wearers. * * * * * * Of course the most relevant survey would be one of burka wearing women in France. However… Muslin groups seem to be against such a survey. From “The Economist.” [http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story\_id=13925890&source=hptextfeature](http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13925890&source=hptextfeature) \*Parliament has launched a cross-party mission to report back in six months. In fact, few women wear the full garment in France. But mayors of cities with big Muslim populations report a steady increase in numbers, due not to immigration but to its adoption by French-born women—often from North African countries where the burqa is not traditionally worn. Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the official French Council of the Muslim Faith, has suggested that the inquiry would itself stigmatise Islam. A ban might be misunderstood abroad, and not only in the Muslim world. (…) Not so, say many French politicians—including such prominent Muslims as Fadela Amara, the cities minister. The founder of a women’s-rights group, Ms Amara has called the burqa “a coffin that kills individual liberties”, and a sign of the “political exploitation of Islam”. \* My last little quote there from Ms. Amara is anecdote of course, but again, I couldn’t locate any decent statistical info on French burka wearers. But if they are generally being denied education and literacy would that change anyone’s mind? My own mind would change if they were attaining (or had obtained) educational levels similar to non-burka wearers and were allowed to speak freely to female pollsters and expressed contentment. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/164 "2009-06-28T02:30:03Z")
I can see both sides here, but in a free society such as France, where women have rights they don’t have in certain societies, shouldn’t they also have the right to choose their clothing? Yes, there is, I’m sure, much pressure to conform to this practice, but it is, imo, the coersive actions of others which should be targeted, not the garment itself. Believe it or not, there are a great many Muslim women who wear the burka out of choice, and who actually consider it LIBERATING, rather than oppressive. I’ve known several of them personally. Most of them lived in the US and had families and/or husbands who were fine with whichever choice they made. The way it was explained to me once is that it offers them a degree of protection from the sexual attentions of men and keeps their sacred female beauty private and only for their husbands and themselves, allows them to profess their faith and live up to what they feel are important components of their faith (subservience to GOD, not their husbands, necessarily, modesty/humility, etc…) They see it as a personal religious practice, a discipline, as well as a way of rejecting what they consider an overly permissive and sexualized culture, where women are treated as sex objects. (and on the lighter side, no worry about bad hair days or break-outs, lol…that was a joke, but one one of them told me, not one I made up:)) One woman even said she and her husband both found her practice of it highly erotic. Sure, many women are forced to wear burkas, and the issue is the force, not the burka. But there ARE many who wear it of their own free will as a religious practice, and to take that right away from them is as coercive as MAKING them wear it, imo. Better to reinforce the idea and practice that women are free to choose, period. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/165 "2009-06-28T02:39:23Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > I can see both sides here, but in a free society such as France, where women have rights they don’t have in certain societies, shouldn’t they also have the right to choose their clothing? > > Yes, there is, I’m sure, much pressure to conform to this practice, but it is, imo, the coersive actions of others which should be targeted, not the garment itself. > > \ > > Sure, many women are forced to wear burkas, and the issue is the force, not the burka. But there ARE many who wear it of their own free will as a religious practice, and to take that right away from them is as coercive as MAKING them wear it, imo. > > Better to reinforce the idea and practice that women are free to choose, period. This. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it here: Four years in the army taught me a healthy hatred of idiots who tried to do things to me “for my own good.” This isn’t about liberating anyone, certainly not the women. This is about people being busybody nitwits, because they don’t like the look of someone from “over there.” ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/166 "2009-06-28T06:55:25Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > burkas are a manifestation of a culture governed by domineering male fanatics.. The same could be said of EVERY religious beleif pretty much. Founders of religions tend to be pretty fanatical about it, and tend to be male. > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > So no, I don’t see it as a free-will choice. So muslim women do not have free will like the rest of us ? They simple automatons that need to be protected from themselves ? > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > era to era No the constitution stays the same from era to era, unless explicitly amended, thats to point of it! The rights are specified in the first amendment have not changed since it was written. While lots of things changed in the ensueing centuries, this is CLEARLY exactly why it was specified, if you replaced “muslims” with “papists” and “wearing the burqa” with “attending mass” you could hear the same discussion in the 1700s. And its the same out I said if forcing people to NOT wear the Burqa in public is found not to be in contravention of the 1st Amendment, there is no way that our grandchildren can count on it to protect them from being force TO wear the Burqa (or Moron dresses, or FSMist robes) in 100 years time. That judgement will still apply to them just as “Brown vs Board of Education” still applies to us. > [@](#): > > abstract principle. The abstract principle invovled is the freedom of religion, and its the basis of our entire society, reason the US was founded, so yes it is worth protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/167 "2009-06-28T10:30:32Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The abstract principle invovled is the freedom of religion, and its the basis of our entire society, reason the US was founded, so yes it is worth protecting. Again, the devil is in the details. In the U.S. children are required to attend school. Is this as unspeakable violation of the their rights and the rights of the parents? The polygamy example still holds. If burka wearers are generally being systematically cut off from society, then I’m all for taking at least token action to show that the men isolating them are not completely in control of their lives. Yeah, it’s addressing the symptom rather than the disease, but a lot of treatment does just that. To repeat myself: \*…if they are generally being denied education and literacy would that change anyone’s mind? My own mind would change if they were attaining (or had obtained) educational levels similar to non-burka wearers and were allowed to speak freely to female pollsters and expressed contentment.\* ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/168 "2009-06-28T12:20:45Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > \*…if they are generally being denied education and literacy would that change anyone’s mind? > > My own mind would change if they were attaining (or had obtained) educational levels similar to non-burka wearers and were allowed to speak freely to female pollsters and expressed contentment.\* That’s not an issue, as far as France is concerned. Kids must go to school until they’re at least 16, that’s mandatory, no exceptions. Kids also are forbidden to wear conspicuous religious symbols in public schools. Again, no exceptions. Meaning, kids do not wear burqas, and burqas do not interfere with their schooling - at least, not the bare bones kind. And over those 16 (18 more likely) years of public education, they’ll hear everything about freedom, civics, individual rights etc… as the State has absolutely no interest in protecting, preserving or furthering their parents’ precious cultural isolation. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/169 "2009-06-28T16:53:05Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Again, the devil is in the details. In the U.S. children are required to attend school. Is this as unspeakable violation of the their rights and the rights of the parents? Apparently yes, because they AREN’T. Thousands of children are legally homeschooled in the US. > [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > The polygamy example still holds. That shows nothing except that, rightly or wrongly, we (as a society) do NOT consider marriage a private expression of religious beleif, but legal contract that can be regulated up the wazoo. > [@](#): > > If burka wearers are generally being systematically cut off from society, then I’m all for taking at least token action to show that the men isolating them are not completely in control of their lives. By taking away control of their lives ? And sending the to prison what they are wearing ? That alone shows this has nothing to do with protecting women. They ONLY people how are going to get punished are Muslim WOMEN. The big nasty Muslim men are free and clear, their clothes are still perfectly legal. What do you think thats going to do for the ability to protect Muslim women from domestic violence ? If they go to the police to report it they could be arrested for what their wearing. This has NOTHING to do with protecting women. And EVERYTHING to do with westerners being put out by people from other cultures wearing things that they are not used to. > [@](#): > > …if they are generally being denied education and literacy would that change anyone’s mind? Hell if the 1st Amendment doesn’t apply to groups that are statisticaly less educated and more likely to be illiterate, what the hell are wasting our time discussing burqas, let’s ban the Larry The Cable Guy! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/170 "2009-06-28T17:45:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > A subculture of those who refuse to let any square cm of their bodies be seen by the infidel stone-worshippers–and that’s what we’re talking about here–will be able to travel incognito anywhere. It’s a bunch of masked men. And that’s illegal for a reason. Knee-jerk paranoia? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/171 "2009-06-29T03:05:48Z")
I think this is actually a very difficult question. Burqas are, obviously, just a piece of cloth. And they are, in some ways, just a symbol. But I think they are more than just a symbol, more than, say, a yarmulke or the prayer caps Amish women around here wear. These things are symbols but do not restrict movement, they don’t muffle or depersonalize. Faces are extraordinarily powerful. Even other animals know what faces are. They are our frame of reference for the humanity of those around us. Seeing the eyes and the mouth, especially, of those we encounter keeps them from becoming just bundles of cloth. There’s a reason we use faces to sell things. There’s a reason I show my face to the world, to the sun, to the people on the street. Burqas dehumanize. I reject arguments that say some women completely of their own volition wear them without any pressure. When you have choices, you can make choices that seem ascetic or restrictive to others but because it is your choice, it becomes bearable. A burqa is more akin to ball gags than to kippot. Their intent is to limit communication, to silence, through uncomfortable bodily restriction and depersonalization. (While people often joke about unruly or loud kids, imagine your actual reaction to a culture that only allowed boys out of the house if they were wearing ball gags. I don’t think we’d say, “Oh, it’s an article of clothing” even if there are other people who might choose to wear such gags for their own purposes.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/172 "2009-06-29T03:15:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think this is actually a very difficult question. No, it’s really not. _This_ is a difficult question: “The way you’re dressing is inappropriate. If you continue to dress that way, you will be punished. How you feel about your outfit is immaterial, because I know better than you do what’s good for you.” Which side of the argument did I just describe? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/173 "2009-06-29T03:18:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, it’s really not. _This_ is a difficult question: > > “The way you’re dressing is inappropriate. If you continue to dress that way, you will be punished. How you feel about your outfit is immaterial, because I know better than you do what’s good for you.” > > Which side of the argument did I just describe? Both. Why was that supposed to be a difficult question? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/174 "2009-06-29T03:27:03Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Both. > > Why was that supposed to be a difficult question? Well, the difficult part is where you explain why it’s okay if we do it, but not okay if they do it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/175 "2009-06-29T03:27:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, the difficult part is where you explain why it’s okay if we do it, but not okay if they do it. You will point out where I said that it’s okay if anyone does it? I’ll wait. The difficulty in the question is that there are no good answers. Both sides want women to conform and might force it if they have to. Both sides act as if people are entirely independent organisms whose choices will reflect only their own desires. Both sides dehumanize and depersonalize and abandon the very people the arguments are about. I’m sure some woman who is forced into a burqa thinks about as highly of your vaunted freedom for her as she does of someone else’s vaunted protection of her. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/176 "2009-06-29T03:34:54Z")
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. And it allows Christians as well as Muslims to wear burqas. That’s _freedom_! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/177 "2009-06-29T03:35:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You will point out where I said that it’s okay if anyone does it? I’ll wait. If you don’t think it’s okay for anyone to do it, what part of “Is it okay for France to ban the burqa?” did you find difficult? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/178 "2009-06-29T03:39:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. And it allows Christians as well as Muslims to wear burqas. That’s _freedom_! It also allows both Christians and Muslims to _not_ wear burqas. Which is also freedom. The law needs to allow people to make their own decisions. It cannot require them to make good decisions. There’s nothing remotely difficult about that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/179 "2009-06-29T03:39:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you don’t think it’s okay for anyone to do it, what part of “Is it okay for France to ban the burqa?” did you find difficult? Not banning it is allowing someone to do it. Banning it is allowing someone to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699/180 "2009-06-29T03:40:39Z")
You lost me there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-president-sarkozy-wants-to-ban-burkas/500699.md?page=10)