# French Presidential Election, 2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 3, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294 "2017-03-03T14:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/181 "2017-05-07T20:14:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re saying that an increase in the likelihood of pogroms and ethnic cleansing is a silver lining? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering how much more peaceful, and how much less poor, the vast majority of people are in liberal and cosmopolitan countries now as compared to the past when they were much less liberal and much less cosmopolitan, I wouldn’t hold your breath. It is to recall he is an apologist for the Soviet regime and likes to pretend it was not the horrible human and economic catastrophe that it was in truth. The success of Macron if the legislative elections keep to a moderate tendency, it will allow the badly needed liberal reform in the French markets and Macron has the liberal, tolerant attitude to the muslim minority, he may be able to make some small changes to help address the discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/182 "2017-05-07T20:17:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The rejoicing, however, must be tempered. With over 1/3 of the runoff vote for FN and neither of the traditional establishment parties having made it to the second round, does this mean from now on THEY will be the main contender, and elections will be about who can best stop FN? No that is the over-reading of the Presidential. The self-destruction of Fillon opened this for Macron. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/183 "2017-05-07T20:20:44Z")
Tres bon! (…and what a relief!) ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/184 "2017-05-07T20:21:17Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No that is the over-reading of the Presidential. > > The self-destruction of Fillon opened this for Macron. I always will be amazed at this… When the scandals began exploding, when the shit began hitting the fan… Why didn’t Fillon quit, leaving the race to some other party member who might have been less tainted by those things? Why soldier on, potentially leading your own party to disaster? Does Fillon have some kind of reputation for being stubborn, or for being too convinced of his own worth, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/185 "2017-05-07T20:30:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering how much more peaceful, and how much less poor, the vast majority of people are in liberal and cosmopolitan countries now as compared to the past when they were much less liberal and much less cosmopolitan, I wouldn’t hold your breath. Most of the increase in human well being since 1990 has been because of economic growth in China, which is neither liberal nor cosmopolitan. (To some extent to growth in Africa and Latin America, and that coincided with democratization, so I’ll give you that). In any case, I don’t think there is really a causative relationship there: the growth in human well being due to increased technological advancement and economic order doesn’t necessarily need to come with liberal democracy, capitalism, or ethnic/cultural diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/186 "2017-05-07T20:30:43Z")
It seems pretty clear that whoever hacked Macron’s emails was not French, since they apparently didn’t take into account the timing, meaning the press and candidates could not comment on whatever might have been revealed. If anything. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/187 "2017-05-07T20:31:34Z")
Good fucking riddance to Le Pen. Another Trump clone is the last thing the world needed. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/188 "2017-05-07T20:43:11Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is to recall he is an apologist for the Soviet regime and likes to pretend it was not the horrible human and economic catastrophe that it was in truth. . I am certainly an apologist for the Soviet regime, but mostly for the second half of the Soviet regime (i.e. after Stalin’s death), which lacked the famines, mass deaths, and other ‘human and economic’ catastrophes for which you and others rightly criticize the first half. The late Soviet era certainly had its share of problems, but as I pointed out before, the CIA estimates of median income growth for the last decade before Gorbachev’s accession were low but positive, \>0.6%. That’s higher than median income growth in the US for the same period, and it’s also higher than median income growth in the United States for the entire period since then. The Soviets certainly experienced their share of economic stagnation, but we’ve experienced economic stagnation _for the median worker_ too. East German GDP growth compared to West German, as estimated by Gerhard Heske, is also very instructive here. I certainly think communism could have benefited from some very serious market reforms- not towards capitalism but towards something like the Hungarian or maybe even Yugoslav models. But yes in the last analogy I think they had a better basic model for society than we did. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/189 "2017-05-07T20:44:00Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Good fucking riddance to Le Pen. Another Trump clone is the last thing the world needed. Trump doesn’t need the help of ignorant comments like that. The FN, unlike the Republicans, despite its claims, is an outright racist party. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/190 "2017-05-07T20:45:43Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > It seems pretty clear that whoever hacked Macron’s emails was not French, since they apparently didn’t take into account the timing, meaning the press and candidates could not comment on whatever might have been revealed. If anything. Tactically, it could go either way. You could also argue ( particularly if the files turn up little that is relevant ) that the release right before the black out was an attempt to frighten/alarm the populace during the short period when they couldn’t be examined properly by the media. I honestly suspect that is more likely. But we’ll see - if any true Macron-damaging bombshells turn up that would argue for the hackers being idiots for not letting this out weeks earlier. Assuming they didn’t _just recently_ manage to pull off their hack(s). That could factor into the timing as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/191 "2017-05-07T20:49:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Trump doesn’t need the help of ignorant comments like that. The FN, unlike the Republicans, despite its claims, is an outright racist party. He didn’t say anything about the Republican Party. Just Trump. And frankly I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest Trump is ( quietly ) an outright racist to not quibble much with his sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/192 "2017-05-07T20:50:45Z")
> [@Great\_White\_Dope](#): > > From the rumblings I’m hearing, this is shaping up to be a Le Pen blow out victory. > > It’s safe to say the clock has struck 11:59 on the E.U. and the globalists’ dream of worldwide power and control. I’m curious if your opinion has changed at all - last I checked, 1/3rd vs 2/3rds is not a “blowout victory”. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/193 "2017-05-07T20:51:54Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Good fucking riddance to Le Pen. Another Trump clone is the last thing the world needed. Le Pen is no clone of Trump, she is completely another phenomena, a French one that has not a thing to do with ‘Trump’ - she is a neo-fascism putting on some make-up. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I am certainly an apologist for the Soviet regime, but mostly for the second half of the Soviet regime (i.e. after Stalin’s death), which lacked the famines, mass deaths, and other ‘human and economic’ catastrophes for which you and others rightly criticize the first half. . and that you feel no shame in this says all that needs to be said. It is not interesting to engage ‘debate’ around the game of pretending the Soviet economy was not a disaster. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Most of the increase in human well being since 1990 has been because of economic growth in China, which is neither liberal nor cosmopolitan. (To some extent to growth in Africa and Latin America, and that coincided with democratization, so I’ll give you that). The idea that the Chinese growth can be divorced from the Chinese relaxation and the CHinese economic integration in the machine of the liberal econmic system which has pulled it along, it is very amusing to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/194 "2017-05-07T20:55:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Trump doesn’t need the help of ignorant comments like that. The FN, unlike the Republicans, despite its claims, is an outright racist party. As I said before, the fact that Trump joined racists like Joe Arpaio in the past election to the hip was telling to many. On a related note, it is also telling when Trump congratulates and admires leaders like the Turkish and Filipino authoritarians that are looking for more dictatorial powers. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/195 "2017-05-07T20:56:34Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Most of the increase in human well being since 1990 has been because of economic growth in China, which is neither liberal nor cosmopolitan. (To some extent to growth in Africa and Latin America, and that coincided with democratization, so I’ll give you that). > > In any case, I don’t think there is really a causative relationship there: the growth in human well being due to increased technological advancement and economic order doesn’t necessarily need to come with liberal democracy, capitalism, or ethnic/cultural diversity. First, congratulations to the French people. They have avoided the French version of Trump. Second, I disagree with this analysis. Even if true, the statement on China is only half correct at best. No, China is not a liberal cosmopolitan country when compared to France, Germany, Canada, Australia, etc. But the China of 2017 is more liberal and cosmopolitan than China of 1990. Had they continued on the hard line communist path I think they would be a lot worse off than they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/196 "2017-05-07T20:59:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m curious if your opinion has changed at all - last I checked, 1/3rd vs 2/3rds is not a “blowout victory”. Funny, Trump thinks \*his \*“victory” is a blowout victory. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/197 "2017-05-07T21:00:43Z")
One wonders if Trump will congratulate Macron like he congratulated Erdogan. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/198 "2017-05-07T21:05:20Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > In any case, I don’t think there is really a causative relationship there: the growth in human well being due to increased technological advancement and economic order doesn’t necessarily need to come with liberal democracy, capitalism, or ethnic/cultural diversity. The historical associations between the rise of democracy, capitalism, and diversity and the rise of technology and productivity are facts which collide with your theory with the force of relativistic planet-crackers. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/199 "2017-05-07T21:08:01Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > First, congratulations to the French people. They have avoided the French version of Trump. > > Second, I disagree with this analysis. Even if true, the statement on China is only half correct at best. No, China is not a liberal cosmopolitan country when compared to France, Germany, Canada, Australia, etc. But the China of 2017 is more liberal and cosmopolitan than China of 1990. Had they continued on the hard line communist path I think they would be a lot worse off than they are now. Le Pen isn’t much like Trump. Say what you will about her political views, but she has a much more deeply thought out and sincerely held ideological convictions than trump did, and she doesn’t have the same personal character issues than he did. They have in common that they’re both opposed to immigration and that they are both ethnic nationalists to some degree (well she is: Trump is just a racist, but I don’t know if he believes in the ideal of homogeneous nation states). On economics and some elements of social policy they’re very far apart. Fascism historically was an alternative to both capitalism and communism, and Trump is definitely not that, he’s a dyed in the wool capitalist. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294/200 "2017-05-07T21:10:22Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The historical associations between the rise of democracy, capitalism, and diversity and the rise of technology and productivity are facts which collide with your theory with the force of relativistic planet-crackers. Not really: there was a lot of high quality scientific research both in the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War as well as in nondemocratic China today. In several fields, China has just overtaken the US in terms of published articles as of, I think, 2015. One can certainly question the quality of some of the Chinese research articles but I don’t think there’s much reason to doubt that China is a major scientific power today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-presidential-election-2017/781294.md?page=11)