# French pronunciation questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376 "2005-09-13T02:00:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/1 "2005-09-13T02:00:32Z")
We’re preparing for three performances next week of \*La damnation de Faust \* by Berlioz. There’s still some disagreement among choristers about how certain passages should be pronounced: 1. _Tous tombaient à la file_. Is the \*s \* at the end of \*Tous \* pronounced? 2. _Hélas_! Is the \*s \* pronounced? 3. _Quand ma mère me mit au monde, j’eus un ivrogne pour parain_. Is there liaison between \*mit \* and _au_? ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/2 "2005-09-13T02:06:46Z")
In the second one, the “s” is _not_ pronounced. In general, only C, R, F, L (be CaReFL) are pronounced. As with all languages, there are exceptions. This isn’t one of them :). ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/3 "2005-09-13T02:21:32Z")
> [@Speaker for the Dead](#): > > In the second one, the “s” is _not_ pronounced. In general, only C, R, F, L (be CaReFL) are pronounced. As with all languages, there are exceptions. This isn’t one of them :). Well, I do pronounce the ‘s’ in “hélas”. I’ve never heard it pronounced it otherwise, and I’m a native French speaker. My answer would be “yes” to all three questions. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/4 "2005-09-13T02:35:07Z")
Yeah, I’ve always heard the _s_ in _hélas_ pronounced, and my Micro Robert backs me up. (The _h_, of course, is silent.) ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/5 "2005-09-13T03:25:28Z")
Not a native speaker, but studied French all my life and 4 years living in France. (1) Yes. (2) Yes. (3) No, but I’m not sure why. I never quite got the rules for _liaisons_ - I believe it’s pretty arbitrary when you do and when you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/6 "2005-09-13T03:36:29Z")
> [@DarrenS](#): > > (3) No, but I’m not sure why. I never quite got the rules for _liaisons_ - I believe it’s pretty arbitrary when you do and when you don’t. I couldn’t tell the rule for _liaisons_ either: to me it’s natural, but then again it’s my native language. I guess I could check in a grammar, but in this case, I think that a ‘t’ at the end of a word always links to a vowel at the beginning of the following one. For this sentence, making the _liaison_ seems more natural to me, but I probably wouldn’t notice it if you didn’t do it, and most other people wouldn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/7 "2005-09-13T04:44:51Z")
There are rules for liasons… I’ve got a page of them (typewritten) dans mon livre de français… but I’m sharing that book with a friend, and he has it right now (for the first time this semester\_. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/8 "2005-09-13T04:50:02Z")
> [@severus](#): > > Well, I do pronounce the ‘s’ in “hélas”. I’ve never heard it pronounced it otherwise, and I’m a native French speaker. > > My answer would be “yes” to all three questions. Hm, strange. I guess these hick teachers know nothing! Good to learn, though. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/9 "2005-09-13T04:58:14Z")
Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. My own inclination is to agree with \*\*severus \*\* and say “yes” to all three questions, but there are others in the choir who disagree. Given the tempo at which we sing some of these passages it probably won’t make much difference anyway. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/10 "2005-09-13T05:56:24Z")
[Here](http://french.about.com/library/pronunciation/bl-liaisons.htm) is a guide on liaisons. The third example in the original post falls under section VI of optional liaisons. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/11 "2005-09-13T06:21:40Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > [Here](http://french.about.com/library/pronunciation/bl-liaisons.htm) is a guide on liaisons. The third example in the original post falls under section VI of optional liaisons. Maybe, but you have to consider that this third sentence is in itself “very high register” due to the tense used and the wording. So, if it’s ever pronounced (probably read aloud, since such a sentence is very unlikely to find its way in an ordinary conversation) it will probably be pronounced with the liason. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/12 "2005-09-13T06:25:05Z")
Sorry, I didn’t pay attention to the fact the context (a choir) was provided by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/13 "2005-09-13T06:42:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Maybe, but you have to consider that this third sentence is in itself “very high register” due to the tense used and the wording. So, if it’s ever pronounced (probably read aloud, since such a sentence is very unlikely to find its way in an ordinary conversation) it will probably be pronounced with the liason. I thought much the same **clairobscur**. The use of the \*passé simple \* of \*avoir \* suggested a “high register” approach to me. The problem is that when we sing the “_Quand ma mère_…” line we are acting the role of a drunken men’s chorus in a tavern somewhere in Leipzig. Other choristers are arguing that if we were \*really \* drunken men we wouldn’t worry too much about the liaison. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/14 "2005-09-13T10:10:45Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > We’re preparing for three performances next week of \*La damnation de Faust \* by Berlioz. There’s still some disagreement among choristers about how certain passages should be pronounced: > > 1. _Tous tombaient à la file_. Is the \*s \* at the end of \*Tous \* pronounced? > > 2. _Hélas_! Is the \*s \* pronounced? > > 3. _Quand ma mère me mit au monde, j’eus un ivrogne pour parain_. Is there liaison between \*mit \* and _au_? 1. Yes 2. Absolutely 3. The use of the \*passé simple \* (preterit) is an indication that the level of French of higher, not colloquial, and the liaison is a must. (francophone here, with special interest in languages and “good” French) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/15 "2005-09-13T13:52:55Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > Other choristers are arguing that if we were \*really \* drunken men we wouldn’t worry too much about the liaison. If you were really drunken men, you’d probably pronounce it : Quand…quand ch’uis né, mon pote, ben mon parrain c’était un…un putain d’iv…d’ivrogne!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-pronunciation-questions/321376/16 "2005-09-13T22:37:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > If you were really drunken men, you’d probably pronounce it : > Quand…quand ch’uis né, mon pote, ben mon parrain c’était un…un putain d’iv…d’ivrogne!!! > > 😉 Perhaps that’s what Charles Dutoit will suggest to us tonight when we have our first rehearsal with him. 🙂