# French prosecutor recommends "Dissolution" of Scientology in France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887 "2009-06-15T23:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/181 "2009-06-17T09:01:16Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I am motivated by my values of autonomy and equality, not some pet chauvinism. Right, and your value of equality is why you feel that religions should be given preferential treatment? > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > …just punishment for their conscientious objections. Sure, if by “punishment” you mean “removal of privileges they shouldn’t have received in the first place” and by “conscientous objection” you mean “aiding the spread of contagious disease because of archaic superstitions.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/182 "2009-06-17T09:10:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > As an interesting aside, according to the wiki, Scientology in Israel does not even claim to be a religion. That’s mainly a cultural thing - as Jews, Israelis have a major dislike of misionaries of any flavor. If the CoS people had presented themselves as a religion they would have been driven out of town, metaphorically speaking. Or possibly literally. They still get protests, though. Just last week I saw a bunch of kids in Guy Fawkes masks cavorting in front of their Rothschild Blvd headquarters. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/183 "2009-06-17T09:52:45Z")
To add a bit of perspective, **Equipoise** thought I was a Scientologist because I didn’t display enough fwuffy wuv in a CS thread, so her dire warnings of operatives hiding in the wardrobe should be taken with the requisite bushel of salt. Or is that exactly what a Scientologist _would_ say? Aha! I have undone me! ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/184 "2009-06-17T11:25:18Z")
Thanks, **Kobal2** and **Kimmy** , for investigating what the French sanctions might entail. I have to say at the end of it I feel far sorrier for the JWs than the Scientologists, but then this is hardly surprising (he said, to further conceal his blatant operative status from the watchful eyes of **Equipoise** … > [@Kobal2](#): > > Thus, basically, we don’t have any laws against any specific religion (and, as a policy, we neither condemn, nor recognize them), but we do have laws vague/extensive enough to go against any “wizard” looks funny to the State, that is to say, to the majority of we, the people. This I find troubling, to be honest. Vague laws make for inequitable application, and while for most Scientology is certainly at the skeevy end of such organisationsfnord, that JWs have been bundled in with them is rather disturbing. There’s a large “because we say so” feel to it, which doesn’t sit well, and the asymmetric treatment of local JW associations and their national organisation seems completely capricious. Obviously protecting the vulnerable is a necessity, but the reasons given for denying the JWs religious tax exemption seem to place the operation of the state in clear primacy to individual freedom: > [@](#): > > The association of Jehovah’s Witnesses forbids its members to defend the nation, to take part in public life, to give blood transfusions to their minor children and that the parliamentary commission on cults has listed them as a cult which can disturb public order. Never mind the circularity (“they’re a cult because our commission on cults says so”), what on earth does the tax regime have to do with discouraging pacifism or forcing people to “take part in public life”? What does taking part in public life even mean? As a rationale for yoinking almost two thirds of an organisation’s donations, it doesn’t seem entirely sound. > [@Grumman](#): > > Right, and your value of equality is why you feel that religions should be given preferential treatment? Without wanting to put words in **Kimmy\_Gibbler** ’s mouth, I feel he’s been quite plain that it is the differential treatment _among_ religions to which he objects. I’m happy to be corrected on this, but at no point have I seen him argue the necessity of giving religions any privileges at all; merely that if some are granted them, all should be. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/185 "2009-06-17T12:19:30Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > You’re kidding, right? No, I’m not kidding. But check under your bed, they may have operatives in there. Oogy boogy boogy! Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t vote, **Dead Badger**. That’s probably what the “taking part in public life” thing means. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/186 "2009-06-17T13:16:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **RedFury** I’ve just never been so aware of your astounding cleverness until just now. ;p Live and learn. It’s called “marketing” and it is entirely consistent with my business proposal. > [@](#): > > You don’t even know what I believe. 😉 > > I don’t know what it is, but I’m against it! What you believe is the least of my worries, though what I’ve gleaned (and more than likely made a derogatory post or two) from scrolling through some of those paranormal, ESP, ghosts, auras, etc. threads that you’re regularly involved in, is that you buy into some of that mumbo jumbo. Added to that – and please correct if I am wrong – you also throw in some bits and pieces from the more established Sky-pixies religions, and voila! I’m willing to sell the gibberish both to make a point and, of course, makes oodles of cash. IOW, much like the origins of the bullcrap that occupies us here. Now, why would I chose _you_ as opposed to the few other nutters the grace us with their presence? Well as a career businessman I am used to making decisions and I find your mishmash of incoherences a better presented product than what the others have to offer. In short, an easier and better sell to the gullible masses. Just please, pretty please, if we do this, don’t voice your opinions on the “Iraq success” and/or your other views vis-a-vis the US’s role in foreign policy. Even those masses I alluded to earlier are not _that_ gullible. Besides, we’re talking going Global here and a buck is a buck is buck no matter if we milk it from Silicon Valley or Port-au-Prince. 😉 * * * Disclaimer for the hard of hearing: this is an ongoing fictional account through which I am still trying to make a point relevant to the thread. Speaking of which, **Equipoise** , I much rather have **Marley** fall prey to my original whoosh and actually scold me for it, like I expect a normal person would than yet another nutter using it as a launching pad for some sinister conspiracy theory. Fer fucks sake, I’ve been on the net since '91 myself – when I was waaay more interested/inclined to confront all sorts of religious and/or superstitious beliefs – and not _once_ was I ever accosted by these alleged plants you speak of. Mind you, I was living State-side till '02. So please, leave me and my posts out of your paranoia. Much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/187 "2009-06-17T13:24:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s mainly a cultural thing - as Jews, Israelis have a major dislike of misionaries of any flavor. If the CoS people had presented themselves as a religion they would have been driven out of town, metaphorically speaking. Or possibly literally. > > They still get protests, though. Just last week I saw a bunch of kids in Guy Fawkes masks cavorting in front of their Rothschild Blvd headquarters. I would conclude that the CoS commitment to religion is somewhat less than its commitment to marketing. The Japanese had a major dislike of missionaries, too, but at least the various mainstream flavors of Christianity were honest about what they were trying to do. The fact that you can file off the religious trappings of Scientology so easily is telling. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/188 "2009-06-17T13:47:23Z")
BTW, **Kobal2** , allow me to welcome yet another well-educated Frenchman (correct, no? The nationality I mean, no questioning the knowledge) to The Dope – better late than never as they say. Much as I enjoyed reading **clairobscur’s** posts, to our detriment he appears to have dropped off the map. Look forward to reading your insights from the land of Jean-Paul Sartre, Catherine Deneuve, Bouillabaisse and Les Blues. Yep, I’m rather scattered in my interests. 😉 Bienvenue! ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/189 "2009-06-17T15:33:33Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > It would make a lot more sense if the governments where Scientology is allowed were to say, “Okay, it’s DEFINITELY not a religion. It is a cult. So, now they pay taxes. Cough it up, Hubbard Lovers!” > > It certainly WAS a mistake to consider it a religion in the first place. It is a cult. Cults we can ban all the hell we want to. The church of scientology can still be a non profit org even if it does not consider itself a religion. The government here does not get to dictate what does or does not constitute a legitimate religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/190 "2009-06-17T15:50:10Z")
COS is not non-profit, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/191 "2009-06-17T15:52:45Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/192 "2009-06-17T16:07:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That definition is worse than useless. The Boy Scouts have unprovable beliefs, for heaven’s sake- and how do you plan to objectively measure how much they care about teaching their beliefs? Wow you really are an asshole sometimes. No wonder you live in the one state shaped like a giant dick. I give a simple suggestion and you act like I pissed in your wheaties. Same way you test for obscenity I suppose. You know you’re asking me to provide a logical test for things that are judgment calls right? I will answer that when you tell me how to logically tell if something is “obscene”. As for how much they care, it’s pretty bloody obvious. If, for example, they focus more on how much money they can scam out of their members, then it’s a scam not a religion. Can you give me a definition of religion that means more then “I’d like a tax break for my for profit organization”, as any definition of religion that includes the “Church” of Scientology would be diluted to mean? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/193 "2009-06-17T16:37:30Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > …just punishment for their conscientious objections. ISTM that any punishments imposed would have been for the crimes of failing to participate in compulsory activities. It’s certainly possible to perform and object simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/194 "2009-06-17T16:54:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > ISTM that any punishments imposed would have been for the crimes of failing to participate in compulsory activities. It’s certainly possible to perform and object simultaneously. …yes, that’s called an empty protest. (Sometimes “whining” or “bitching.”) I don’t see any legitimate way to describe refusing to vote or serve in the military as a disruption of the public order. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/195 "2009-06-17T17:08:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t see any legitimate way to describe refusing to vote or serve in the military as a disruption of the public order. Quite; particularly when they’re _non_-compulsory activities. “You don’t have to do this, but if you advise people not to, we’ll tax the fuck out of you.” Hardly a rallying call for free speech, is it? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/196 "2009-06-17T17:17:25Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Live and learn. It’s called “marketing” and it is entirely consistent with my business proposal. Ahh, so why have you had such shitpoor marketing until just now? > [@](#): > > What you believe is the least of my worries, though what I’ve gleaned (and more than likely made a derogatory post or two) from scrolling through some of those paranormal, ESP, ghosts, auras, etc. threads that you’re regularly involved in, is that you buy into some of that mumbo jumbo. Added to that – and please correct if I am wrong – you also throw in some bits and pieces from the more established Sky-pixies religions, and voila! I’m willing to sell the gibberish both to make a point and, of course, makes oodles of cash. IOW, much like the origins of the bullcrap that occupies us here. I believe that a lot of the Woo cannot be so handily dismissed as it is by people here. I believe in one God, not multiple Gods. That is that all people worshipping God are worshipping the same God. Different ideas about adherence are personal and cultural matters. I believe that we are manifestation of consciousness and that there are levels of consciousness above our own that have an impact on the world. I believe that with our will we can shape our environment. That ultimately all matter is an idea and that understanding the rules of the system gives us greater power over the shape of the system. In a nutshell that’s it. > [@](#): > > Now, why would I chose _you_ as opposed to the few other nutters the grace us with their presence? Well as a career businessman I am used to making decisions and I find your mishmash of incoherences a better presented product than what the others have to offer. In short, an easier and better sell to the gullible masses. Just please, pretty please, if we do this, don’t voice your opinions on the “Iraq success” and/or your other views vis-a-vis the US’s role in foreign policy. Even those masses I alluded to earlier are not _that_ gullible. Besides, we’re talking going Global here and a buck is a buck is buck no matter if we milk it from Silicon Valley or Port-au-Prince. 😉 LOL, well thanks for the vote of confidence. I should get cracking on writing my self-help book. 😉 It’ll be the like the Secret but with personal responsibility and material reality thrown in. ;p ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/197 "2009-06-17T18:11:21Z")
Why is there even such a thing as a “recognized” religion? Why does the government need to give religions some special status? On another note, Anonymous is currently organizing world wide protests against Scientology with their Operation Sea Arrrgh II. See these links for more information: > **[しわに効果的なボトックス注射を試してみよう！](http://seaarrrgh.com/)** > > しわでお困りの方、ボトックス注射で改善させましょう。きっと満足のいくお肌になるでしょう。 [http://www.whyweprotest.net](http://www.whyweprotest.net) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/198 "2009-06-17T18:28:11Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Why is there even such a thing as a “recognized” religion? Why does the government need to give religions some special status? Tax exemptions, as far as I know. And while it’s tempting to say ‘do away with tax empetions for religions,’ that leads to an intertwining of government and religion that, personally, I’m not comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/199 "2009-06-17T18:36:24Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Why is there even such a thing as a “recognized” religion? Why does the government need to give religions some special status? Because they’re asking for tax emempt status. If a government is going to say that religions don’t have to pay taxes, then it needs to establish some kind of criterion for what counts as religion. Personally, I think we should do away with giving them tax exemptions completely. Altogether too many churches are just profiteering rackets. They should all be taxed through the nose, less whatever they actually spend on charitable works. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/200 "2009-06-17T18:54:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You asserted that if Scientology isn’t a religion, any group can bill itself as a religion. I asserted that? Really? Where? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=11)