# French prosecutor recommends "Dissolution" of Scientology in France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887 "2009-06-15T23:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/21 "2009-06-16T01:42:59Z")
No, I believe he was referring to cases where Scientology cold-bloodily planned the murders of human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/22 "2009-06-16T01:46:33Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > But seriously, fuck Scientology. Fuck 'em with a rusty chainsaw. When it comes to fucking with chainsaws, you want to use a well oiled machine. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/23 "2009-06-16T01:49:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > No, I believe he was referring to cases where Scientology cold-bloodily planned the murders of human beings. Blood libel? Nice touch. :rolleyes: Can you substantiate these sensational charges? I really am amazed how blinded some people can be to their own prejudices. What’s next? _The Protocols of the Elders of Xenu_? ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/24 "2009-06-16T02:00:11Z")
**Miller** , you have a private message. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/25 "2009-06-16T02:06:50Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Blood libel? Nice touch. :rolleyes: > > Can you substantiate these sensational charges?u\*? What’s Operation Clambake’s URL? Give me 15 minutes and _I_ can substantiate that high ranking Scientologists have plotted to kill people. It’s all part of the “Fair Game” doctrine. To compare it to blood libel is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/26 "2009-06-16T03:23:20Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > I would be worried about this on the grounds of religious liberty if I had any reason to believe that Scientology was a religion. Since I’m highly dubious about that, I’m a lot less affronted. That’s pretty much the key here. It takes a special kind of stupid to seriously consider Scientology a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/27 "2009-06-16T04:27:58Z")
Moving religious pitting from IMHO to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/28 "2009-06-16T04:37:31Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Irrational hatred for outgroup religions is not made more attractive just because the prejudice is currently fashionable. ☹ :mad: Hatred for criminal organisations is not made less attractive just because they hide themselves behind people’s irrational defense of anything called a religion. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/29 "2009-06-16T05:00:52Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > Hatred for Scientology is not at all irrational. If our government suddenly grew such balls you do realize that the athiests would probably end up first against the wall, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/30 "2009-06-16T05:05:26Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > If our government suddenly grew such balls you do realize that the athiests would probably end up first against the wall, right? So what? One can hate Scientology yet (grudgingly) admit it’s a legal operation. Although frankly, _that_ is still up in the air until some brave prosecutor tries to take them on. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/31 "2009-06-16T05:19:50Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > If our government suddenly grew such balls you do realize that the athiests would probably end up first against the wall, right? Even _if_ that was true, it does not mean stomping out the Scientology is bad, only that your leaders are such monsters that they see a failure to believe in fairy tales as a bigger threat than an organisation whose leaders were convicted of crimes _targetting the United States government_, for the benefit of that organisation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/32 "2009-06-16T05:27:31Z")
Viva La France! And viva la difference! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/33 "2009-06-16T05:42:17Z")
In Scientology’s defense, all religions are stupid. Isn’t there something about a _mote in your own eye_ in that book about the zombie jew who was god and took form so that he could spare us from eternal torture that he decided to inflict upon us by having some people nail him to a tree? I’m an atheist and I don’t support banning any religion. Let people be morons in the way they want to, so long as they don’t hurt others. Scientology has some secular crimes to answer for, let them answer for it, but it’s the height of arrogance for a religious person to call for their dissolution. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/34 "2009-06-16T05:49:15Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Blood libel? Nice touch. :rolleyes: > > Can you substantiate these sensational charges? I really am amazed how blinded some people can be to their own prejudices. What’s next? _The Protocols of the Elders of Xenu_? Do you know anything about the history of Dianetics, and how it became Scientology? The original article on Dianetics in Astounding had no mention of religion. It was only when they were in trouble with taxes and with false claims about their clear machines that they became a religion. L. Ron no more believed in it as a religion than the guy who invented the FSM. They took a whole bunch of money from my ex-gfs little brother, and only had to give it back because he was underage. A friend’s brother is a pretty high official in the “church” but not high enough to keep the powers that be from preventing him from letting his kids visit their grandparents (they might be corrupted.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/35 "2009-06-16T05:55:15Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Blood libel? Nice touch. :rolleyes: > > Can you substantiate these sensational charges? I really am amazed how blinded some people can be to their own prejudices. What’s next? _The Protocols of the Elders of Xenu_? You’re a fool. A courageous fool, defending Scientology when you know you’ll be attacked viciously by many people, but a fool nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/36 "2009-06-16T06:14:17Z")
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I believe strongly in freedom of religion. On the other hand I also believe organized crime should be brought down. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/37 "2009-06-16T06:40:17Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What’s Operation Clambake’s URL? [www.xenu.net](http://www.xenu.net/) As stated by various others above, I think Scientology\* is pretty ridiculous, but arguably no more ridiculous than the beliefs of the most staunch Biblical inerrantists of fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity[sup]†[/sup]. \*“Teegeeack”, “Xenu”, Thetans, volcanoes, spaceships that look like DC-8s, etc., etc. [sup]†[/sup]The entire Universe having been created in six days less than ten thousand years ago, a talking snake, a talking donkey, the Creator and Governor of the cosmos sending bears to maul a bunch of juvenile delinquents for calling one of His prophets “baldy”, etc., etc. However (again agreeing with others above), I have heard too many documented things about the _Church of_ Scientology not to regard it as a thoroughly corrupt and arguably criminal organization. (There apparently are some [Scientologist groups outside of the main Church of Scientology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)). I would probably find their philosophical beliefs to be just as daft as those of the Scientologist mainstream, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re criminals or immoral people.) There _are_ are such things as “cults”. There isn’t always a 100% bright line between what is a cult and what isn’t: The Presbyterian Church (USA)–not a cult. Jonestown–was a cult. Other groups may not be so easily classified. As an atheist and a secular humanist I disagree quite fundamentally with the avowed beliefs of the Presbyterian Church (USA) (for example, that humans can and do enter into a personal relationship with the creator of the Universe by way of the “substitutionary atonement” entailed in the execution by the Roman Empire of a Jewish religious reformer and/or rabble-rouser 2,000 years ago); but the PCUSA does not try to force its members to cut off all contact with friends and loved ones outside the church; it does not engage in campaigns of harassment and intimidation of external critics or internal dissenters; it does not create elaborate networks of front organizations which seek to obscure their true connections to Presbyterianism or the Presbyterian Church (USA); it does not seek to hide the details of the belief system it teaches from those outside the church. I don’t approve of “banning religions”. If members or officials of the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of Scientology commit crimes, they should be prosected to the full extent of the law–in France or anywhere else. If members or officials of any church act in ways that meet the definition of “criminal conspiracy”, they should be treated the same as members of any other “criminal conspiracy”. However, while I’m not by any means a fan of the Roman Catholic Church, I suspect that even after a pretty vigorous prosecution of crimes committed by members and officials of the RCC (including criminal cover-ups of other crimes), carried out by officials in multiple nations–there would still be a Roman Catholic Church, substantially intact, if perhaps rather chastened. I am not at all sure the Church of Scientology could withstand even completely fair and impartial investigations and prosecutions (which had access to all the facts) and remain as a functioning organization. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/38 "2009-06-16T07:02:26Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Blood libel? Nice touch. :rolleyes: [ul] [li]Over 900 people died in a mass murder-suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978[/li][li]Over 700 members of the “Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God” died (or were killed) in Uganda in 2000.[/li][li]Nearly 3,000 people were killed on September 11, 2001, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks carried out by members of Al Qaeda, an organization avowedly dedicated to the establishment of states ruled by their interpretation of Islamic law.[/li][/ul] Are those “blood libels” as well? From Operation Clambake: [The “Fair Game” policy](http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html). From another anti-Scientology website (the [“Suppressive Person” Defense League](http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)): the Church’s [Department of Government Affairs](http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=287&Itemid=50). From [yet another anti-Scientology website](http://www.scientology-lies.com/), [reports of criminal activity by the Church of Scientology](http://www.scientology-lies.com/investigation.html). ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/39 "2009-06-16T07:32:02Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > [ul] > [li]Over 900 people died in a mass murder-suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978[/li][li]Over 700 members of the “Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God” died (or were killed) in Uganda in 2000.[/li][li]Nearly 3,000 people were killed on September 11, 2001, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks carried out by members of Al Qaeda, an organization avowedly dedicated to the establishment of states ruled by their interpretation of Islamic law.[/li][/ul] > Are those “blood libels” as well? No. Those things happened. None of them involve Scientology. In the decades the CoS has been in existence, no mass murders or suicides have occurred at their behest. I really don’t see how this recital is relevant. Do you understand why that makes your recounting those incidents a particularly ham-handed red herring? > [@](#): > > From Operation Clambake: [The “Fair Game” policy](http://www.xenu.net/fairgame-e.html). > > From another anti-Scientology website (the [“Suppressive Person” Defense League](http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)): the Church’s [Department of Government Affairs](http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=287&Itemid=50). > > From [yet another anti-Scientology website](http://www.scientology-lies.com/), [reports of criminal activity by the Church of Scientology](http://www.scientology-lies.com/investigation.html). I see a lot of “We hate those who betray us” yammering, but nothing that ripened into actual attempts on the life of another. I see more gruesome talk in the Pit on a daily basis. The last link–it’s always the last link–is the only thing that comes close to the original, within-fifteen-minutes promised information, that is, substantiated accounts of the attempts on the lives of others. Under the header “conspiracy to murder” there are two affadavits (and no corroborating testimony or physical evidence).The first affidavit [Wakefield] testifies to an attempt on the life of “this man who defected,” no further details as to the identity of the targeted victim or the dates, location, and/or circumstances of the attempt are given. Wakefield also asserts that Paulette Cooper was targeted. Again, no dates or location or other details are provided. It also bears mentioning that Paulette Cooper is still very much alive. The second affidavit is a tale of Mexican banditos and the ensuing revanchist operation (also asserted to have been canceled before taking place). As with the first, no details are given. If the tale were set in a HoJo rather than Mexico, I’d rather expect a pitting about its complete laughability. So, no, I’d say that the case has not been made that Scientology has engaged in the cold-blooded planning of the murder of several people. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/40 "2009-06-16T07:40:00Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > No. Those things happened. None of them involve Scientology. In the decades the CoS has been in existence, no mass murders or suicides have occurred at their behest. I really don’t see how this recital is relevant. > > Do you understand why that makes your recounting those incidents a particularly ham-handed red herring? And the incredibly loaded phrase “blood libel” is not an irrelevant and ham-handed red herring? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=3)