# French prosecutor recommends "Dissolution" of Scientology in France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887 "2009-06-15T23:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/101 "2009-06-16T17:35:09Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The Church of Scientology is not Medieval Jewry. Your analogy is essentially Godwinizing the thread. No it isn’t, you’re wrong. Just because that’s what you think of automatically doesn’t mean he’s using the term incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/102 "2009-06-16T17:39:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Prosecute the INDIVIDUALS for the crimes, not all adherents of the religion. They are. What adherents are being punished? Can you give an example of any Scientologist being tried or hassled just for being a Scientologist? And it’s not a religion. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/103 "2009-06-16T17:41:07Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I say this without sarcasm: I know it is not easy being the single defender and having to respond to a dozen people hurling crap at you. So I really don’t expect you to reply to my posts as a matter of courtesy since I was kind of latecomer. But please look above and consider, for example, Operation Snow White or some of **sailor** ’s examples. > > I also throw out “intentionally obtuse” and such not because I am either winning or losing, but because I feel that vituperation is merited by the position taken by my internet conversation partner. There is no judge, there are no speaker points, there is no winning. The little bit’s the Talmud; the rest is commentary. The problem here is that you have demonstrated that these criminal actions were prosecuted as such. Why does anyone need to go further and persecute the religion? Also, do you have any evidence that religious persecution that did not involve killing its adherents was ever effective anywhere in slowing its spread? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/104 "2009-06-16T17:41:41Z")
Wait. **Kimmy Gibler** is a _guy_? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/105 "2009-06-16T17:42:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They are. > > What adherents are being punished? Can you give an example of any Scientologist being tried or hassled just for being a Scientologist? This thread is about the “dissolution” of Scientology in France. > [@](#): > > And it’s not a religion. You’re right, you’re not a true religion until you’ve been banned by the government. 😉 It worked so well against the Mormons after all. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/106 "2009-06-16T17:43:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And really, who have you seen burned at the stake, and by whom? Good point. Heard of, then. > [@Marley23](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake, stop being such a paranoid. **Kimmy\_Gibbler** is new around here, but **Really Not All That Bright** is not. Why the fuck would the CoS have started planting people around here six years ago just in case somebody ever opened one thread? :rolleyes: Hey, you never know. Maybe my account has been hacked. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/107 "2009-06-16T17:49:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of those other religions charge people money to find out what the teachings are. The violence is not what makes COS a bogus religion, it’s the selling of the alleged teachings. Actually religion defining social status has been a time-honored institution. From the Hindu caste system to secret Mithraic cults in the Roman military. We live in a capitalist society so why wouldn’t a newer iteration of that impulse be carried out in a capitalist manner? You are biased in a very Abrahamic way, saying that the teachings must be free in order to be legitimate. Why does the use of money matter one way or the other when defining a religion? Who says a religion cannot charge money? The US Tax code certainly, but does the Federal Government have the final word on what is and isn’t a religion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/108 "2009-06-16T17:53:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Hope you’re bald as a bowling-ball like myself, **Marley** , otherwise all that air rushing over your head is going to leave you in the same state anyway. I thought you were concurring, not mocking, but let’s move on. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/109 "2009-06-16T17:57:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Prosecute the INDIVIDUALS for the crimes, not all adherents of the religion. I haven’t been closely following what’s happening in France, but is that the case? Are they going to arrest people just for professing a belief in Scientology? Or are they attempting to restrict the organizations ability to act in the country? Are they outlawing the sale of Dianetics? What, exactly, does this “ban” consist of? My dislike of Scientology aside, I, too, am troubled by the idea of a government banning a religion. On the other hand, there are such things as criminal organizations. It does not beggar belief to think that a criminal organization might take on the trappings of a religion to protect themselves from government interference. I don’t think it’s healthy for a society to allow its religious protections to be abused in that fashion. If the French government can demonstrate, in a court of law, that the Church of Scientology as an institution has been guilty of racketeering, extortion, and what have you, using exactly the same standards of evidence as would apply to any other allegedly criminal organization, then I have no objection to the church being treated like those other criminal organization. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/110 "2009-06-16T17:57:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No it isn’t, you’re wrong. Just because that’s what you think of automatically doesn’t mean he’s using the term incorrectly. The “blood libel” was a _completely false_ accusation made against medieval Jews. It wasn’t an “exaggeration”, it didn’t get some of the details wrong, it wasn’t that medieval Christians overinflated the _number_ of children murdered by Jews, or that the Jews were killing Christians, sure, but not quite so lurid a way or for quite so lurid a purpose as the Christians claimed. The medieval blood libel was 100% utter bullshit, completely false, and had no factual basis whatsoever. On [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blood_libel&oldid=294611077#Blood_libels_in_the_modern_world), someone cites some (no doubt propagandistic, ridiculous and indefensible) claims about Maoist China as a modern example of “blood libel”. Except that the Maoists in China really did mass murder hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, and callously allowed millions more to die before changing their murderously inept policies. Whatever a bunch of people on Wikipedia may think, casually tossing around such a loaded term as “blood libel” in this way, blurring distinctions between complete falsehoods about an group of people essentially powerless to defend themselves against violent attacks condoned or even organized by the powerful; and (yes, quite stupid) exaggerations told against a totalitarian dicator who was in fact a mass murderer, is not defensible. And at one point the article apparently had a section on the Rape of Nanking–I’m sure some people, well-intentioned or not, have exaggerated the horrors of that particular well-documented atrocity that actually did occur, but it was nonetheless insane to have ever lumped such in with vicious falsehoods about medieval Jews kidnapping Christian children and draining them of their blood. By that logic, one could have a section on “Blood libels against the Nazis”!–Since the [tales of Nazis making soap from their victims were not, in fact, true](http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-7-02.html). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/111 "2009-06-16T18:09:42Z")
If Scientology is a religion, then I am at a loss to imagine what groups wouldn’t qualify as a religion, if they so desired. Biker gangs. Archery clubs. Professional organizations. Honorary societies. Glee clubs. All one has to do is claim religious status and Bob’s yer uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/112 "2009-06-16T18:14:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If Scientology is a religion, then I am at a loss to imagine what groups wouldn’t qualify as a religion, if they so desired. Biker gangs. Archery clubs. Professional organizations. Honorary societies. Glee clubs. All one has to do is claim religious status and Bob’s yer uncle. Well, Avon _is_ almost a religion to some… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/113 "2009-06-16T18:20:02Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If Scientology is a religion, then I am at a loss to imagine what groups wouldn’t qualify as a religion, if they so desired. Biker gangs. Archery clubs. Professional organizations. Honorary societies. Glee clubs. All one has to do is claim religious status and Bob’s yer uncle. If Scientology isn’t a religion, then what is? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/114 "2009-06-16T18:20:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I haven’t been closely following what’s happening in France, but is that the case? Are they going to arrest people just for professing a belief in Scientology? Or are they attempting to restrict the organizations ability to act in the country? Are they outlawing the sale of Dianetics? What, exactly, does this “ban” consist of? > > My dislike of Scientology aside, I, too, am troubled by the idea of a government banning a religion. On the other hand, there are such things as criminal organizations. It does not beggar belief to think that a criminal organization might take on the trappings of a religion to protect themselves from government interference. I don’t think it’s healthy for a society to allow its religious protections to be abused in that fashion. If the French government can demonstrate, in a court of law, that the Church of Scientology as an institution has been guilty of racketeering, extortion, and what have you, using exactly the same standards of evidence as would apply to any other allegedly criminal organization, then I have no objection to the church being treated like those other criminal organization. Fair point. I don’t really understand it. I’ll wait until people here can interpret it for me better. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/115 "2009-06-16T18:24:20Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The “blood libel” was a _completely false_ accusation made against medieval Jews. It wasn’t an “exaggeration”, it didn’t get some of the details wrong, it wasn’t that medieval Christians overinflated the _number_ of children murdered by Jews, or that the Jews were killing Christians, sure, but not quite so lurid a way or for quite so lurid a purpose as the Christians claimed. The medieval blood libel was 100% utter bullshit, completely false, and had no factual basis whatsoever. He pasted a definition. The blood libel was used against Jews yes, but it has a broader usage as **Kimmy\_Gibbler** cited that refers to accusations of human sacrifice. > [@](#): > > On [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blood_libel&oldid=294611077#Blood_libels_in_the_modern_world), someone cites some (no doubt propagandistic, ridiculous and indefensible) claims about Maoist China as a modern example of “blood libel”. Except that the Maoists in China really did mass murder hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, and callously allowed millions more to die before changing their murderously inept policies. Agreed. I think the Maoist Chinese really did murder people. So it’s inapplicable in that sense. > [@](#): > > Whatever a bunch of people on Wikipedia may think, casually tossing around such a loaded term as “blood libel” in this way, blurring distinctions between complete falsehoods about an group of people essentially powerless to defend themselves against violent attacks condoned or even organized by the powerful; and (yes, quite stupid) exaggerations told against a totalitarian dicator who was in fact a mass murderer, is not defensible. Did the Scientologists actually murder people to further their religion or not? If not, then it’s a _blood libel_ to accuse them of such. > [@](#): > > And at one point the article apparently had a section on the Rape of Nanking–I’m sure some people, well-intentioned or not, have exaggerated the horrors of that particular well-documented atrocity that actually did occur, but it was nonetheless insane to have ever lumped such in with vicious falsehoods about medieval Jews kidnapping Christian children and draining them of their blood. By that logic, one could have a section on “Blood libels against the Nazis”!–Since the [tales of Nazis making soap from their victims were not, in fact, true](http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-7-02.html). Ok, so there are problems with the wikipedia article. Your problem here consists of extrapolating a greater meaning to the term than just as it refers to Jews and Christians in the middle-ages. He is using it in a broader sense and you want to keep it narrow. Hardly the same as ‘Godwin’. Since you are picking at such fine nits, you should know that Godwin actually refers to comparisons to Hitler and has nothing to do with Jews or Christians in the Middle-Ages. It is not a Godwin unless Hitler or Nazis are mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/116 "2009-06-16T18:24:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If Scientology isn’t a religion, then what is? I’m afraid the logic of that syllogism escapes me. Nothing, as far as I know, is a religion contingent upon Scientology not being one. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/117 "2009-06-16T18:31:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Actually no, **Kimmy Gibbler** is not a fool, the rest of you are fools. Kimmy Gibbler is sane and rational. He’s making a very solid argument about how religion should be treated by law and not accepting things based on hearsay. This is a load of bullshit. Gibbler is blithely denying that Scientologists have ever done any real harm, despite lots and lots of evidence proving that people have died because of the CoS’s policies. > [@mswas](#): > > His posts are the most intelligent in this thread. If you really think that, you’re even more of a fool. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The problem is that all the relatively low-grade criminal activities–we agree that is what OSW is and Operation Freakout was never implemented–all happened in the early-to-mid 70’s. That’s more than 30 years ago. Lots of other shit has happened since then. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/118 "2009-06-16T18:35:01Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’m afraid the logic of that syllogism escapes me. Nothing, as far as I know, is a religion contingent upon Scientology not being one. You asserted that if Scientology isn’t a religion, any group can bill itself as a religion. Well, what’s wrong with that? Who are you to judge the depth of anyone’s faith? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/119 "2009-06-16T18:39:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Wait. **Kimmy Gibler** is a _guy_? Yes. Oh, don’t sound so shocked! These are enlightened times. I just like the show, OK? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/120 "2009-06-16T18:54:32Z")
You go France! Next they’ll ban that other goofy cult; you know, the one that believes an old man lives in the sky and killed his only son in a bizarro ritual of blood sacrifice? Then there’s the one with the elephant-headed god and the blue people, and the fat Asian guy with all of the morality stories, and… Frankly, I don’t think government has any business sticking it’s nose in religion; either the promotion of or the _censoring_ of. People have the right to believe whatever crazy crock of shit appeals to them, as long as the death toll is kept to a minimum. I’m in favor of that religion with the rum, cigars and smoking hot island girls dancing nude around a bonfire to loud Samba music. What would France say to that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=7)