# French prosecutor recommends "Dissolution" of Scientology in France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887 "2009-06-15T23:04:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/141 "2009-06-16T20:25:30Z")
If Scientology is banned in France, it will only go underground and proclaim its martyrdom. It might even get stronger. Nothing good can come of that. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/142 "2009-06-16T20:25:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I thought you were concurring, not mocking, but let’s move on. Can’t say that I blame you for being so perspicacious, in fact it’s a trait I’ve always admired in you. But enough with the praise. Yeah, let’s do that. * * * I see that my old pal, the wacky yet always entertaining, **mswas** , is here. Tell you what bud, how’s about us two make a deal? See apropo of this thread I figured we could reach some sort of understanding whereby you sell me sort of like a script of all the loony stuff you believe in and I’ll pitch it to the masses in hopes of becoming a new-fangled L. Ron Hubbard. Or else we could form a partnership, where you provide the content and I’ll finally use that broadcasting degree that I’ve got shelved somewhere…plus half the start-up costs. What say you? Because I smell P-r-o-f-i-t, man! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/143 "2009-06-16T20:34:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Actually religion defining social status has been a time-honored institution. From the Hindu caste system to secret Mithraic cults in the Roman military. We live in a capitalist society so why wouldn’t a newer iteration of that impulse be carried out in a capitalist manner? I wasn’t talking about social status or esotericism. Scientology teachings are not esoteric, they’re for sale. > [@](#): > > You are biased in a very Abrahamic way, saying that the teachings must be free in order to be legitimate. Why does the use of money matter one way or the other when defining a religion? Who says a religion cannot charge money? The US Tax code certainly, but does the Federal Government have the final word on what is and isn’t a religion? What do you think WOULD disqualify an organization from being able to credibly call itself a religion? As has been shown, Scientology only presents itself as a religion when it’s convenient for tax exempt staus, and as a secular business when that’s more convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/144 "2009-06-16T20:39:07Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > This is the whole point. No one here has posted any evidence that it is a religion being persecuted rather than a criminal organization being prosecuted. None. Zero. It really is astonishing how easily some people can be manipulated. This is it right here. No one has shown that the French state gives a shit what the COS’s specific beliefs are, that they’re trying to supress any doctrines, or that they’re trying to harrass anybody for believing them. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/145 "2009-06-16T20:41:43Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > …I don’t suppose there’s an actual French person on this board who can help us out, is there? Does the French ban on Satanism exist? What does it entail? Can you sacrifice a goat to Ba’al in the safety of your own home (subject to animal cruelty regulation, natch)? Can you invoke the name of LaVey without les gendarmes battering down the door? Can you sell a book on Satanism? What can’t Satanists do that Christians can? There is, or there was. If he’s still around, surely no one better than the erudite Frenchman in Paris, **clairobscur**. I’ll search and see if he is still active after I get back from the gym. If he is, I agree, it’d be great to have his perspective from the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/146 "2009-06-16T20:50:02Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > I think it’d be nice to know what a French ban on a religion entails. I’ve had a cursory look for details about their supposed ban of Satanism, and have had precisely no luck. In fact, I can find no reference to the ban at all, save in the Time article already referred to, and articles citing said Time article. Without knowing the nature of France’s actions against organised religions it Doesn’t Like The Face Of, it’s very hard to have sensible discussion about them. > > I don’t suppose there’s an actual French person on this board who can help us out, is there? Does the French ban on Satanism exist? What does it entail? Can you sacrifice a goat to Ba’al in the safety of your own home (subject to animal cruelty regulation, natch)? Can you invoke the name of LaVey without les gendarmes battering down the door? Can you sell a book on Satanism? What can’t Satanists do that Christians can? I believe the source of the ban comes from the 1995 [Parliamentary Commission on Cults in France.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_Commission_on_Cults_in_France) The report of this commission [included as cults](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults_in_government_reports#France) the Church of Scientology, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Hare Krishnas, the Rosicrucians, among many others. A later report in 1999 reaffirmed these official cult findings. The 1999 report also investigated a group called “[Anthroposophie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy),” which might be the source of the inclusion of “Satanism.” The effect of this ban seems akin to the mischief perpetrated when sodomy was a crime, and therefore, gay men and lesbians were accordingly criminals or at least criminally inclined. The [Jehovah’s Witnesses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_governments#France) discovered it in a case where they sought to avail themselves of French tax law’s religious-based tax exemption. From the link above: > [@](#): > > The Association Les Témoins de Jéhovah, a not-for-profit religious association used by Jehovah’s Witnesses in France, was denied tax-exempt status for certain taxes by the French tax authorities. Religion-supporting organizations (_associations cultuelles_) in France can ask to be exempted from a number of taxes, including taxes on donations, as long as their purpose is solely to organize religious worship and they do not infringe on public order. The reasons for this denial were stated: > > > [@](#): > > > > The association of Jehovah’s Witnesses forbids its members to defend the nation, to take part in public life, to give blood transfusions to their minor children and that the parliamentary commission on cults has listed them as a cult which can disturb public order. > > The list alluded to as final argument is given in the report from a 1996 Parliamentary Commission on Cults; however, reports such as this carry no legal or regulatory force. Some of these donations, which will be taxed at a confiscatory 60% rate without the exemption, included money dedicated for a humanitarian relief effort in Rwanda, according to the JW’s. Thus, no one goes to jail for rococo beliefs about Xenu. However, there is considerable interference with the _practice_ of the religion and the ability to form intentional communities around religious worship for disfavored religions. It is important to recognize that the freedom of belief extends to these very intimately related rights of free exercise and expressive association (to use the American jurisprudential terminology). And that a government which permits mere belief, but not its companions, has violated its citizens’ religious liberties. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/147 "2009-06-16T20:53:41Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > apropo This is probably just a typo, but just in case it isn’t: [nitpick]à propos, or àpropos, or apropos[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/148 "2009-06-16T21:03:43Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > No. Asshole. It is NOT. And if you say otherwise then YOU need to provide some credible evidence that people are being persecuted for their beliefs. Otherwise you are spouting bullshit as you usually do. Yes sir Captain ASSertion sir. I lol’d when you were offended by my agreeing with you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/149 "2009-06-16T21:05:11Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Maybe, but it is also pretty understandable that it would cause some confusion. I am also probably an outlier given my peculiar education. I was tempted to jump on this earlier, but other stuff downthread distracted me. Yep, overall not a very useful tangent. People should be more quick to just accept when someone uses and idiosyncratic usage of something as long as they understand the point being made. Rather than useless, “How dare you compare Scientologists to the suffering of the Jews?”, hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/150 "2009-06-16T21:08:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I see that my old pal, the wacky yet always entertaining, **mswas** , is here. > > Tell you what bud, how’s about us two make a deal? See apropo of this thread I figured we could reach some sort of understanding whereby you sell me sort of like a script of all the loony stuff you believe in and I’ll pitch it to the masses in hopes of becoming a new-fangled L. Ron Hubbard. Or else we could form a partnership, where you provide the content and I’ll finally use that broadcasting degree that I’ve got shelved somewhere…plus half the start-up costs. > > What say you? Because I smell P-r-o-f-i-t, man! Actually I had a little cult for a period of time. I stopped when I couldn’t get over the guilt of having fucked a virgin. Though how this became about my beliefs I don’t know why. You just wanted to suck me off a little? Mighty nice of you. Since you’re not a virgin I can let you do that without guilt. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/151 "2009-06-16T21:10:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t talking about social status or esotericism. Scientology teachings are not esoteric, they’re for sale. Money is the main form of social status transaction in a capitalist society. Trying to extract business from a modern religion just doesn’t make any sense. Religions are defined somewhat by the culture in which they arise. All I am saying is that using money as a mediator of the process does not qualify or disqualify something from being a religion. > [@](#): > > What do you think WOULD disqualify an organization from being able to credibly call itself a religion? I don’t know, it’s an interesting question. > [@](#): > > As has been shown, Scientology only presents itself as a religion when it’s convenient for tax exempt staus, and as a secular business when that’s more convenient. Can you give me an example of it presenting itself as a business when that was more convenient? That’s not a challenge, I really don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/152 "2009-06-16T21:11:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is it right here. No one has shown that the French state gives a shit what the COS’s specific beliefs are, that they’re trying to supress any doctrines, or that they’re trying to harrass anybody for believing them. So now organizations need to prove they are not criminal cartels? I thought the burden of proof was on the affirmative. Maybe not in France. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/153 "2009-06-16T21:18:00Z")
**Mswas** , I just would like to point out the “quote-plus” button at the bottom of each post. You might find it useful. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/154 "2009-06-16T21:25:50Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > **Mswas** , I just would like to point out the “quote-plus” button at the bottom of each post. You might find it useful. I use it sometimes. I was replying as I read the thread. Sorry if it annoys people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/155 "2009-06-16T21:33:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Can you give me an example of it presenting itself as a business when that was more convenient? That’s not a challenge, I really don’t know. Look at **Maeglin’s** cite (post #109) regarding Scientology’s activities in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/156 "2009-06-16T21:36:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So now organizations need to prove they are not criminal cartels? I thought the burden of proof was on the affirmative. Maybe not in France. I don’t know how you’re getting this from anything I said. As far as I know, the burden to prove the COS is a criminal enterprise rests with the French state. It’s a fairly easy burden to meet. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/157 "2009-06-16T21:37:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t know how you’re getting this from anything I said. As far as I know, the burden to prove the COS is a criminal enterprise rests with the French state. It’s a fairly easy burden to meet. You replied in agreement with **Sailor** that it was incumbent upon the defenders of Scientology to prove that they are not a criminal organization. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/158 "2009-06-16T22:38:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You replied in agreement with **Sailor** that it was incumbent upon the defenders of Scientology to prove that they are not a criminal organization. No. Asshole. I never said such thing. Only your retarded brain would think so. I have said that in this thread the French government is being accused of religious persecution without any evidence of such thing. If you want to support that view you can present your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/159 "2009-06-16T22:56:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You replied in agreement with **Sailor** that it was incumbent upon the defenders of Scientology to prove that they are not a criminal organization. No, I agreed that no one had shown any evidence that any actions taken against the COS were motivated by the content of their beliefs, or that anyone was being persecuted just for being a Scientologist. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887/160 "2009-06-16T22:58:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally posted by **mswas** > > Can you give me an example of it presenting itself as a business when that was more convenient? That’s not a challenge, I really don’t know. > > Look at **Maeglin’s** cite (post #109) regarding Scientology’s activities in Israel. Correction: **Miller** wrote post #109. **Maeglin** ’s post with the cite about $cientology calling themselves a secular business in Israel is [#139.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11249578&postcount=139) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-prosecutor-recommends-dissolution-of-scientology-in-france/499887.md?page=9)