# French schoolkids no longer welcome in US. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621 "2003-06-09T11:13:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/61 "2003-06-10T13:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > **They’re nervy bastards, no doubt. It’s just like when some damned ethnic group lives in a town in your country and you have to go cleanse the area, right? Tell us all about it, Brutus.** Ricky (Can I call you Ricky? Thanks!), you don’t want to hear about ethnic cleansing. Oh sure, you think it’s all glamour, but let me tell you: It’s a dreary business. Long hours, repetitive work, low pay. More like a factory job than what the recruiting posters were advertising! But I would love to be regaled by stories about the Canadian Paratroopers! Preferably a story about some exotic locale, like…Somalia! What would be _really_ great would be a story about the rough-and-tumble troops taking a Somali youth under their wing, teaching him about the hard-knocks of life! \*\* > [@](#): > > You know what else is really inconvenient? People who engage in peaceful civil disobedience for civil rights, like those uppity Negroes back in the 60s. Why, they should have just sprayed them with flame throwers. You have to admit it would have been very effective in reducing protests. People would have been a few hundred racial inferiors roasted alive and said “Well, I’d best not oppose the U.S. government on this issue.”\*\* I am trying to see the connection between sitting at the front of a bus and fucking with nuclear tests. Hrmmmm. No, no, I can’t see it. DAMN MY MENTAL MYOPIA! But help me, Ricky. Help me be a better person! I will go and have a ‘protest march’ for whatever issue you want. Globalization? Equal rights for Canadians? Monkeypox? You name it, I will vigorously protest for it. You run towards a nuclear storage facility while screaming, “NOOO!! I MUST SAVE MOTHER EARTH!!!”. Afterwards, we can share, compare, and contrast our experiences! Help me help myself, Ricky. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/62 "2003-06-10T13:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Yes, of course. Let’s speculate from a single incident in Germany reported by a Doper here to what would happen in the US with no real definition as to the events, actions, reactions, situation, location, or evidence whatsoever. > \*\* my point in using his own example against him, is that he refuted the point he was trying to make. A drunk gets in a huff, and his three german friends come to his rescue. Does that illustrate that the Germans hate the Americans, or that their anger is directed at the Bush administration? He also stated his three German friends were anti-war, they’re still friends with eachother wich clearly means that his German friends can see past his nationality, and do not blame him directly for the war. Unlike the french teacher in the US, who got heckled or experienced some unpleasant situations, simply because he happens to teach the language. I was pointing out the difference in reactions you get at both sides of the Atlantic** > Yes, because obviously a few people here and there boycotting products is equivalent to grave desecration. Oh wait, haven’t the French engaged in boycotts of products of other countries? Surely if we want to be honest about that, we’ll call out those examples as well, right? > > [http://www.suntimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimes/entertainmentst/entertainmentst1050989925.asp](http://www.suntimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimes/entertainmentst/entertainmentst1050989925.asp) > [http://www.dawn.com/2003/03/26/int10.htm](http://www.dawn.com/2003/03/26/int10.htm) > > Gee, my first two Google hits. I fully expect to see you post your outrage at the French who are boycotting American products, with the exact, same intensity as you posted about Americans doing the reverse. > \*\*your first link: > "Seventeen percent of French people surveyed said they were less likely to buy products from the United States, balanced by four percent who said they were more likely. > > Interviews with British consumers found 11% claiming to be less likely to buy US products, compared with four percent claiming to be more likely. > > In Germany, 13% said they were less likely to buy American, against 9% who said they were more likely. " > _and the conclusion was:_ > "“Of the three countries we examined, the British are far more likely to consider leveraging their purchasing power to make a point about an issue that concerns them.” > > your second article was dated 25th March, and dealt with conscientious objectors of the war against Iraq not purchasing American products, it does not deal with _people_ being targetted because of their nationality. Which was the point I was trying to make in my OP. The article also stated that those type of boycotts have little or no impact on those businesses, anyway.\*\* > > I won’t even bring up when the EU ordered France to accept British beef post-BSE, and France said in effect “fuck you, we don’t have to do anything the EU says”. But I’m sure you will post your outrage on that as well, since we want to be fair and impartial here. Otherwise, one would think we have an axe to grind… > **Where did I state I condoned everything France, or the French, did? When they were testing their nukes in the pacific, I was vehemently opposed, and went on protest marches. But I will never target a population simply because of it’s nationality. Which seemd to be the case, here.** > Yes, because we all know the policies set by world leaders, diplomats, and ambassadors are tied directly to a few misguided dipshits here and there re-naming chips. :rolleyes: > \*\*again, it’s a sensitive issue to state that a bunch of schoolkids are no longer welcome with their hostfamilies, **because they are French.** > Bullshit. Your implication is quite clear. > \*\*i beg to differ. I say what i mean and I mean what i say. Do not put words into my mouth, please. What piqued me about this article, is that the teacher, Mr. Van Rooten had to say that this (cancelling the trip) was done in the self-interest and wellbeing of the students. Implying that their wellbeing was at risk had they not cancelled the trip. Also, other families who had not withdrawn their invitation, could not guarantuee “that the children would not be greeted with “unpleasantness”.” > > One of the French parents stated: "“It’s true that the majority of French were against the war, but not against Americans in general. I was certainly not aware of any great anti-US feeling in Carcassonne.” > > There have been threads on this board, that we, here in Europe are not “anti-American”, we are opposed to Bush, his administraion and most of all his foreign policies. Anti Bus /= Anti American.\*\* > > You, in Ireland, are on the receiving end of the effects of some dipshits calling French dressing “freedom dressing”? I guess it is a small World after all. > **if you read that paragraph carefully, you’ll see I was talking about the French being at the receiving end, not me, or Ireland.** > Gee, when I said a very similar thing about Muslim terrorism and the Muslim press, I got my ass flamed off here in the Pit, and faced insinuations that I was an anti-Muslim person. And I had people pile on me to chastise me for this. Why the silence now, folks? Do you think that’s fighting ignorance? > > And you know why I was jumped on by people (who I’m sure will be in here any minute to support me)? Because a single perception of reading carefully selected news filtered and reported only via the net is purposefully regionally biased, statistically bankrupt, selective, undocumented, incorrect, meaningless, and pointless. > **i did a search, again, and only one US paper had a hit when searching on those headlines. The Washington Times.** > Yes, because in all things and all actions and all events of history, the US has done this. :rolleyes: > **Vietnam, Korea, Chile, Nicaragua. Plenty of examples around of US foreign policy and it being based on Might makes Right. I truly wish it _wasn’t_ so** > > Your arguments are bankrupt and full of gross and quite stupid and silly generalizations intended to support your clear bias. You’re not interested in any sort of discussion or actual enlightenment, nor any first-hand anedotal evidence by people here who have been posting of a profound lack of “hate” or “discrimination” towards the French in the US. You’ve also carefully ignored nearly all posts here which rebutted your position, so I don’t think you’re going to respond to this one. You’ve made up your mind, and decided to make your “let’s poke at the US” post of the month. > **I am not biased against the US. I dislike it’s current president, that’t true. I am interested in a discussion, and I have read plenty of first hand anecdotal evicence about the lack of anti-French feelings in most places in the US. it is a pity, though, that despite the majority of Americans can see the forest through the trees, the ones that can’t are the ones that always pop up in the news, and the US media does not seem to be in an uproar about it, either. It seems to be accepted behaviour. Please provide me with cites if I’m wrong, here (US media slamming those decisions, for instance). I have not avoided the posts that rebutted my position, mostly because I was busy with other things, and also because I do not want to clutter threads with constant replies or rebuttals. I wait until there are a few answers, and reply to them combined, or I pick one that seems to summerize most other rebuttals, and I reply to that one as that seems the handiest, shortest way (instead of replying 5 times the same thing).** > > I hope it’s been cathartic for you. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/63 "2003-06-10T14:20:18Z")
oh, and apologies about all the typos and spelling mistakes. I’m in work so this had to be done in a hurry. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/64 "2003-06-10T14:37:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **Ricky (Can I call you Ricky? Thanks!), you don’t want to hear about ethnic cleansing. Oh sure, you think it’s all glamour, but let me tell you: It’s a dreary business. Long hours, repetitive work, low pay. More like a factory job than what the recruiting posters were advertising!** Umm… gosh, are you saying you’re a war criminal? That’s quite a thing to admit. I’ll be sure to remember that. > [@](#): > > **I am trying to see the connection between sitting at the front of a bus and fucking with nuclear tests.** I can’t see any connection between raping little girls and being a soldier, either. > [@](#): > > \*\* I will go and have a ‘protest march’ for whatever issue you want.\*\* You’ve done quite enough marching. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/65 "2003-06-10T15:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Really? So when the French asshats redecorated that war memorial, with all sorts of clever ‘Death to Yankees’ and ‘Rosbeefs go home’ slogans, that was a directed anti-Bush statement, eh? \*\* Brutus, do you have friends? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/66 "2003-06-10T16:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > … the ones that can’t are the ones that always pop up in the news, and the US media does not seem to be in an uproar about it, either. It seems to be accepted behaviour. Please provide me with cites if I’m wrong, here (US media slamming those decisions, for instance). I’m sorry, but I don’t think you understand. Your assertion is that unless I can provide links to online sources showing an “uproar” in the US press, then anti-French bias is the “accepted behaviour” in the US? So unless I can refute your point by doing this, you are correct? It doesn’t work that way in debate. The burden is on you to prove your point, and proving it by a lack of online links to the “US press” (whatever that means; I don’t think you have a any real concept of the press of a continent-wide country of 300 million persons which has little to no governmental control or oversight over tens of thousands of independent journalistic sources, but I digress) does not wash. It didn’t wash when _I_ incorrectly stated that a lack of outcry by Muslim press sources and Muslim clerics _implied_ that terror and terrorism were “accepted behaviour”. I got called on that, and I’m calling you on the same tactic. Why don’t you back up your assertion first that anti-French bias is the “accepted behaviour” here? Or, are you going to back me up and assert with the same, exact intensity that a lack of “uproar” in the Muslim press implies that terrorism is the “accepted behaviour”? Do you see why what you are saying doesn’t work? You can’t have it both ways. I have read a multitude of op-ed pieces decrying the “freedom fries” and other stunts as silly and ignorant in USA Today and the WSJ, as well as my local paper. None of these is readily available online to link to, so I guess they don’t exist, since nothing that isn’t online is important anymore… Most journalistic sites require “free registration” which I won’t do. But all of that is beside, above, and beyond the point that you need to prove your assertion, not I. I also respectfully take issue with another point of yours: I assert that boycotts against the products of a nation target “individuals” as well. They have a direct, economic impact on the workers, producers, marketers, retailers, and all persons involved. When the French burn down a McDonald’s or block lorries of British beef at the ferries, or dump Coke into the gutters in Nice, they are targeting _individuals_. Pretending that it’s only hurting a big, faceless corporation is short-sighted. Otherwise, by your metrics I could argue that no one targeted the schoolkids as _individuals_ - they only didn’t want to participate in the organization and the program from a national standpoint. We both agree that the withdrawal of the hosting families is a stupid, dumb-assed think for them to do, and without honor. I think we both agree that this should raise some alarm bells with respect to the methods of qualifying host families. But I think we are having a failure to communicate on what constitutes proof of this alleged accepted behaviour of the US. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/67 "2003-06-10T17:12:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*I’m sorry, but I don’t think you understand. Your assertion is that unless I can provide links to online sources showing an “uproar” in the US press, then anti-French bias is the “accepted behaviour” in the US? So unless I can refute your point by doing this, you are correct? It doesn’t work that way in debate. > \*\* I did not assert anything, please note the (frequent) use of the word “seem”. I searched on the internet (google, yes, as it’s an US based Search engine, and yahoo), and I could find 1 article on the subject. I thought it strange that this did not get more media coverage, and since I’m all the way over here, apart from the internet, there’s nowhere else I can search. The likes of Eason’s here in Ireland have their international newspapers sold out by the time i get out of work. \*\* > > The burden is on you to prove your point, and proving it by a lack of online links to the “US press” (whatever that means; I don’t think you have a any real concept of the press of a continent-wide country of 300 million persons which has little to no governmental control or oversight over tens of thousands of independent journalistic sources, but I digress) does not wash. > **if my only access to US media coverage is CNN (no reception, I’m afraid), and internet pages of US media, and there do not seem to be any of those around, how can I prove that point? And may I point out to you, again, thjat I did not assert that, I said “seemed”. Big difference. I never make a claim unless I’m absolutely certain I can back it up. SO if I say “seem”, and you shout “not true!”, then it’s up top you to prove me wrong.** > > It didn’t wash when _I_ incorrectly stated that a lack of outcry by Muslim press sources and Muslim clerics _implied_ that terror and terrorism were “accepted behaviour”. I got called on that, and I’m calling you on the same tactic. Why don’t you back up your assertion first that anti-French bias is the “accepted behaviour” here? Or, are you going to back me up and assert with the same, exact intensity that a lack of “uproar” in the Muslim press implies that terrorism is the “accepted behaviour”? > \*\* again, i made no such assertion. I would be more than willing to change my point of view if there are articles, even columns or opinion pieces on this. Are there? I’m not being facetious here, I would really like to know. The message we’re getting here in Europe is that media coverage is very one-sided in the US. But that’s just the impression, I’d never claim that that was fact.\*\* > > Do you see why what you are saying doesn’t work? You can’t have it both ways. > \*\*I’m not looking to have it both ways. I stated that in this particular instance, I was appalled at the behaviour of _some_ Americans. I have also stated that I was appalled at what the French government did when they were testing their nukes in the pacific. Being Flemish, i have a lot of issues with the French government and how it has behaved towards the Flemish throughout history. I do not expect you to know what I’m talking about, but suffice to say that I do not tar an entire population with the same brush. \*\* > > I have read a multitude of op-ed pieces decrying the “freedom fries” and other stunts as silly and ignorant in USA Today and the WSJ, as well as my local paper. None of these is readily available online to link to, so I guess they don’t exist, since nothing that isn’t online is important anymore… Most journalistic sites require “free registration” which I won’t do. But all of that is beside, above, and beyond the point that you need to prove your assertion, not I. > \*\*again, I did not make that assertion. I I never claimed that because something is not available online, it does not exist. Simply that, because of the distance, and because it isn’t online, I have no access to it. \*\* > > I also respectfully take issue with another point of yours: I assert that boycotts against the products of a nation target “individuals” as well. They have a direct, economic impact on the workers, producers, marketers, retailers, and all persons involved. When the French burn down a McDonald’s or block lorries of British beef at the ferries, or dump Coke into the gutters in Nice, they are targeting _individuals_. Pretending that it’s only hurting a big, faceless corporation is short-sighted. Otherwise, by your metrics I could argue that no one targeted the schoolkids as _individuals_ - they only didn’t want to participate in the organization and the program from a national standpoint. > \*\* well, the article you provided me with, concluded otherwise. The article in your second link stated that those boycotts (not having a Starbucks cup of coffee, not drinking Coke, etc) did not harm big business. So I’m sorry I had to use your own provided article against you. It was there that that statement was made, I did not do that personally. Moreover, I think that the pouring of coke into the gutter, and the violation of the McDonalds restaurant ( are you referring to Mr Bove?) came as retaliations (us imposed tax on frencgh cheese, before the war, even). > They were not the instigators of boycotts. > Here’s a link to those stories: > [http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/press/mcds/bbcnews130900.html\*\*](http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/press/mcds/bbcnews130900.html**) > > We both agree that the withdrawal of the hosting families is a stupid, dumb-assed think for them to do, and without honor. I think we both agree that this should raise some alarm bells with respect to the methods of qualifying host families. But I think we are having a failure to communicate on what constitutes proof of this alleged accepted behaviour of the US. \*\* seemingly so. I hope i cleared things up a bit. And the other option I gave, was ignored. Could that possibly be true? Not that it’s accepted, but that those incidents, when they do occur, are largely ignored by mainstream US media? Again, a genuine question. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/68 "2003-06-10T17:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > \*\*seemingly so. > I hope i cleared things up a bit. > And the other option I gave, was ignored. Could that possibly be true? Not that it’s accepted, but that those incidents, when they do occur, are largely ignored by mainstream US media? Again, a genuine question. \*\* You did not use the word “seem” in this quote: > [@](#): > > But to be at the receiving end of this kind of behaviour, even though it is coming from a small group of Americans (and I haven’t really read any outrage in the American press, **which means that those kind of actions are either ignored or condoned in the US** ) for the simple reason that they (the french) opposed and protested against this war wuite strongly, is, quite frankly, very scary. (emphasis added) Now do you see why I objected? Those are _your_ words up there, not mine. You do not refer to “seem” once in here, despite saying you made “frequent use” of it - you made an assertion that I highlighted above. You said it “means”, not that it “seems”. Yet you claim you made no assertion…? Can you tell me why that doesn’t match with what you said? I’m sorry if it appears I ignored you on your other option. What other option? It was hard to read the last post prior. Would you mind re-phrasing it? Could it be true that instances of discrimination are largely ignored by the mainstream US media? Sure, it could be. Is it likley? I can say “No, IMO.”, but that carries no factual basis. Considering the scandal-mongering and legal/litigation-mongering aspect of society here, I somehow doubt that anything like that would be ignored. But I would have no way to factually say yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/69 "2003-06-10T18:30:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > Umm… gosh, are you saying you’re a war criminal? That’s quite a thing to admit. While **Brutus** has proven himself to be a Grade-A Prime Asshole and Certified Jerkwad, I _don’t_ think he qualifies for being a war criminal… yet. But hey, the week’s young. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/70 "2003-06-10T23:37:22Z")
**elfje:** > [@](#): > > exactly, you get one asshat German and three Germans come to your defence. How would those percentages bbe were you French in the US? I would expect that if the exact same situation (in reverse) happened (let’s say a French friend of mine who was against the war talking civilly about it to me and two American buddies who supported the war, and the conversation happened in, say, Chicago, and some drunk American rudely denounced the French guy as a “cheese eating surrender monkey”), I feel confident in saying that my American buddies and I would tell the guy to screw off. In other words, no damn different than you. If we repeated this particular scenario enough times to get a representative sample, yes, you would get some instances where the asshats would prevail. Then again, if you repeated the scenario I mentioned around Europe enough times to get a representative sample, I imagine that you would also get some instances where the asshats would prevail. But as **Anthracite** put it, to “speculate from a single incident in Germany reported by a Doper here to what would happen in the US with no real definition as to the events, actions, reactions, situation, location, or evidence whatsoever” is patently ridiculous. > [@](#): > > My point was that the defamation of those graves was a singular event. The so-called “patriotic boycott” by some US citizens of France, French products, and now, as it seems, even French schoolkids who’ve been going on this exchange programme for 26 years, is spiteful, to say the least. Of course it’s spiteful. But now that **Anthracite** has posted two examples of the same kind of spite infecting a few numbnuts in Europe, I’m sure you will use them to imply that Europe and its entire citizenry are infected with the same kind of ignorant mentality. Now, confronted with these few incidents in Europe, I’m sure you’ll start another thread using these examples as evidence of anti-American hysteria in Europe, and rail against it with the same vehemence with which you started this thread. > [@](#): > > again, I was not implying that Americans are a bunch of French haters. Yeah you were. How else do you explain your inane thread title: “French schoolkids no longer welcome in US.”? You wanted to post this isolated incident of Americans acting like jerks and invite a good ol’ fashioned anti-American pile-on - fun for the whole family!! Maybe you wanted to feel culturally superior, since you sniffed: > [@](#): > > “Here in Europe, at least the anger is directed at the Bush administration, not the US citizens” Furthermore, let’s be honest. If one of us Americans Dopers had gone to [MEMRI.org](http://MEMRI.org) and cherry-picked some Egyptian or Saudi invective against America and then used it to imply Egyptians or Saudis were hate-filled freaks, you know good and goddamn well the flood of Dopers would descend on the American Doper like flies on shit. Why aren’t you, as well as the rest of the European and international dopers, as well as Americans who should know better, doing the same thing when the target is America (or an American)? We all know why – America (and its citizens) is a convenient fat fucking punching bag. Fine, I guess it goes with the territory of being the global Big Man on Campus. But, as **Anthracite** said, you sure as hell aren’t fighting ignorance. > [@](#): > > (and I haven’t really read any outrage in the American press, which means that those kind of actions are either ignored or condoned in the US) You know, yesterday around 20,000 flights or so took off and landed safely in the U.S. News of this feat did not make the American press. Therefore, since I didn’t read about it in the New York Times, I guess those flights did not happen. But since you were wondering: [Anti-French stupidity blasted by Newsday](http://www.newsday.com/features/food/ny-nydug3206674apr06,0,2085610.column?coll=ny-foodday-print) [Anti-France stupidity blasted by Las Vegas Review-Journal](http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Apr-01-Tue-2003/opinion/21011082.html) There. Are you satisfied? The overwhelming majority of Americans don’t condone stupid anti-French behavior, no matter whether we supported the war or not. You’ve now read more than a few posts on this thread from Americans who actually LIVE HERE and rightly claim there is no widespread campaign of hate and discrimination against the French (or any other Europeans). Will you – as well as other international Dopers who feel the same way about America(ns) as **elfje** seems to – please give AT LEAST equal weight to these anecdotal stories (which I guarantee are much closer to the TRUTH) as you gleefully give to this unfortunate incident among a couple of stupid Americans? Will you please cease slandering our country – or at least slander your own countries or other countries that have parallel examples of anti-American crap as the story of the moronic American parents with the same vehemence? In other words, be fucking consistent. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/71 "2003-06-11T00:07:45Z")
**elfje:** > [@](#): > > my point in using his own example against him, is that he refuted the point he was trying to make. A drunk gets in a huff, and his three german friends come to his rescue. Does that illustrate that the Germans hate the Americans, or that their anger is directed at the Bush administration? He also stated his three German friends were anti-war, they’re still friends with eachother wich clearly means that his German friends can see past his nationality, and do not blame him directly for the war. The point I was trying to make can be found in the paragraph I wrote directly underneath my anecdote. Specifically, > [@](#): > > Just about everywhere you go, the cool folks vastly outnumber the shitheads. Unfortunately, the shitheads are usually the loudest and get the most attention. **The moronic parents in America no more represent America than the drunk guy represents Germany**. **elfje:** > [@](#): > > Unlike the french teacher in the US, who got heckled or experienced some unpleasant situations, simply because he happens to teach the language. I was pointing out the difference in reactions you get at both sides of the Atlantic. By your logic, since I got called a “fucking American bastard” by one guy in Germany, I can conclude the prevailing German zeitgeist is anti-American drunk dickheadedness. After all, since a few American parents turned out to be idiot Francophobes, you’ve concluded that somehow, this is the default American reaction to anything French. No, the much more reasonable conclusion I can draw from my unfortunate incident in Munich is that my three German buddies are far more representative of their country’s people than the drunk guy. I can conclude that from actually having BEEN to Germany and witnessing first-hand how hospitable they really are. I respectfully ask that you give us the same benefit of the doubt. Better yet, come across the pond and see for yourself. And bring a Frenchman with you. Preferably a rich one, so he can buy all the drinks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/72 "2003-06-11T04:58:58Z")
Has anyone ever seen a junior varsity team play the seasons’ last game, when the team’s best fan is dressed out and allowed to sit on the sidelines? Someday, as the horses clop past the Capitol bulding of the United States in a suburb of Provo, Utah, a lead-suit clad President Bush is going to hand a jersey over to **Brutus** with the number “0” on it. Congratulations, **Brutus** , for showing your support for the team. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/73 "2003-06-11T08:14:10Z")
There are some fascinating (to me, at least) tidbits hidden in this story. 1. Springside School, the Chestnut Hill (Philadelphia), Pennsylvania private girls’ school that has unilaterally cancelled this exchange, is an exclusive “preppy” school in a _very_ upscale suburb. The fees are US$17,900 per year (according to [this site](http://www.transfert.net/a8904)), and it is an archetype of the East Coast US “elite” private school. There is a similar boys’ school acros the street. The kids tend to have parents who in the past have been drawn to the “snob value” of learning French. Given Chestnut Hill’s exclusivity, I would think that the chance of French exchange kids being treated badly in public anywhere near there is close to zero. 2. The news story [linked to above](http://www.transfert.net/a8904), gives a French perspective. It’s in French, which I realize means that most Dopers won’t be able to read it. However, I tried running it through [Google’s Translation Page](http://translate.google.com/translate_t), to see how good a job it would do, and was impressed with the result. There are mistakes, of course, but the gist is accurate IMHO. One thing this story mentions that the [Daily Telegraph link](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F06%2F08%2Fwexch08.xml) doesn’t is that the French school in question (lycée Jules Fil in Carcassonne) also has an exchange with a school in Jackson, Mississippi. In 2003, the French were going to host the Mississippians and then spend three weeks in Philadelphia. In a twist that some may consider ironic, the folks from Mississippi (which is stereotyped as being much more backward, redneck, and – as the French article says – _“des ploucs”_) are keen on maintaining the exchange. It’s the wealthy suburban Philadelphians who are killing the deal, for 2003 and 2004 at least. 1. Both the [Daily Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F06%2F08%2Fwexch08.xml) and [transfert.net](http://www.transfert.net/a8904) links refer to "“A Pennsylvania senator has introduced a bill in the state legislature to ban the sale of all French alcohol in the state liquor stores.” (Those words are from the Telegraph). I assume this in reference to [PA Representative Steve Barrar (Republican)](http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/21703_wineban.html). Do any Keystone State Dopers know what happened to this legislation? IIRC, in Pennsylvania, state-owned liquor stores are about the only place a member of the public can buy wine, _non_? Wouldn’t this be a pretty major deal if it passed? **Personal Note** : I have been to Springside School. It is not “Middle America” by any stretch of the imagination. In fact – and this is why this turn of events is particularly interesting to me – a very close friend of mine taught at Springside, and actually ran the French Exchange program there (the one with Carcassonne that is being cancelled for 2003 and 2004) at one point. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/74 "2003-06-11T10:00:33Z")
Goheels [/quote] In other words, be fucking consistent. [/quote] For fuck sake Goheels, are we to start threads every time we see any sort of injustice at all? how do you know that we don’t speak out against unfair “anti-american” actions? I recall most of the eurodopers denouncing the attack on the cemetry in France. or is it a case of Silence equalling consent? You’re simply putting opinions in peoples heads with know knowledge of how they would actually react. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/75 "2003-06-11T10:44:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*While **Brutus** has proven himself to be a Grade-A Prime Asshole and Certified Jerkwad, I _don’t_ think he qualifies for being a war criminal… yet. > > But hey, the week’s young. \*\* I took this to be sidewise reference to Brutus’ service, as I recall, with the fine Croat forces sometime in the past decade or at least his strenuous defence of the same. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/76 "2003-06-11T11:14:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*You did not use the word “seem” in this quote: > > (emphasis added) > > Now do you see why I objected? Those are _your_ words up there, not mine. You do not refer to “seem” once in here, despite saying you made “frequent use” of it - you made an assertion that I highlighted above. You said it “means”, not that it “seems”. Yet you claim you made no assertion…? Can you tell me why that doesn’t match with what you said? > **yes, you are right. My OP did not say anything about US media, my first reply to your post did indeed not include the word “seem”, only my second post did. My apologies. I never meant to state as an unrefutable fact, that this kind of behaviour is unilaterally condoned, I gave the two options in my first reply to you: either condoned or ignored. In your last post now, you state that yes, it could be (ignored), but IYO it’s not likely. I believe that in my second reply to you, I also stated that I knew that the majority of Americans did not behave like that, and that it was sorry that it was the ones behaving in an asshat kind of way, that made it into the news. I believe GoHeels has provided me with two links of US coverage slamming the “Anti-French stupidity”. I haven’t gotten around to reading them, as I wanted to reply to your post first. I seemed to have touched a nerve, and that wasn’t my intention. I was more disappointed then anything else about the (perceived) lack of reaction in the US media.** > > I’m sorry if it appears I ignored you on your other option. What other option? It was hard to read the last post prior. Would you mind re-phrasing it? > **I think I cleared this misunderstanding up in answer above** > Could it be true that instances of discrimination are largely ignored by the mainstream US media? Sure, it could be. Is it likley? I can say “No, IMO.”, but that carries no factual basis. Considering the scandal-mongering and legal/litigation-mongering aspect of society here, I somehow doubt that anything like that would be ignored. But I would have no way to factually say yes or no. \*\* ok. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/77 "2003-06-11T11:19:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*Has anyone ever seen a junior varsity team play the seasons’ last game, when the team’s best fan is dressed out and allowed to sit on the sidelines? > > Someday, as the horses clop past the Capitol bulding of the United States in a suburb of Provo, Utah, a lead-suit clad President Bush is going to hand a jersey over to **Brutus** with the number “0” on it. > > Congratulations, **Brutus** , for showing your support for the team. \*\* I don’t understand what you are trying to get at, but I like it. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/78 "2003-06-11T12:22:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GoHeels \* > \*\ ***elfje:** > > I would expect that if the exact same situation (in reverse) happened (let’s say a French friend of mine who was against the war talking civilly about it to me and two American buddies who supported the war, and the conversation happened in, say, Chicago, and some drunk American rudely denounced the French guy as a “cheese eating surrender monkey”), I feel confident in saying that my American buddies and I would tell the guy to screw off. In other words, no damn different than you. > \*\* good\*\* > > If we repeated this particular scenario enough times to get a representative sample, yes, you would get some instances where the asshats would prevail. Then again, if you repeated the scenario I mentioned around Europe enough times to get a representative sample, I imagine that you would also get some instances where the asshats would prevail. > **i agree.** > > But as **Anthracite** put it, to “speculate from a single incident in Germany reported by a Doper here to what would happen in the US with no real definition as to the events, actions, reactions, situation, location, or evidence whatsoever” is patently ridiculous. > \*\*I didn’t do that. I stated that in Europe, our sentiments are directed to the US gevernment, not to its citizens. You then replied with the incident described in your first post. I then replied that that proved my point more then it proved yours. I don’t think we will get to a consensus on this, so I apologize if I offended you. I didn’t mean to do that. > \*\* > > Of course it’s spiteful. But now that **Anthracite** has posted two examples of the same kind of spite infecting a few numbnuts in Europe, I’m sure you will use them to imply that Europe and its entire citizenry are infected with the same kind of ignorant mentality. > > Now, confronted with these few incidents in Europe, I’m sure you’ll start another thread using these examples as evidence of anti-American hysteria in Europe, and rail against it with the same vehemence with which you started this thread. > \*\* I don’t know if you have read my full reply, or the links I provided in that reply, but I refuted Anthricite’s claims. The pouring down the gutter of Coke, was retaliation to French wine being poured down the gutter in the US. The Beef protest had nothing to do with this war, but with BSE, and the French not wanting to accept British beef. The other stories (McDonalds being demolished and such) had nothing to do with anti american feeling due to the Iraq war, but anti-american feeling due to something completely different, events that had happened two years ago, even. I provided links to those stories. \*\* > > Yeah you were. How else do you explain your inane thread title: “French schoolkids no longer welcome in US.”? You wanted to post this isolated incident of Americans acting like jerks and invite a good ol’ fashioned anti-American pile-on - fun for the whole family!! > \*\* the title of the article was “French schoolkids told to stay out of US”. The title i used for my thread is not all that different. But again, I’m sorry if I offended you in particular, that was not my intention, I copied the actual article’s title. You have to agree that the content of the title was not significantly altered. “told to stay out” and “no longer welcome” are more or less the same thing, in this instance, at least. I didn’t want to have a good ol’ American Bashing, if I did, then that would have been the title of my thread. Why is it so hard to believe that I found it hard to comprehend that that kind of behaviour _occurred_, and I was bothered with the (perceived) lack of reaction in the US press. Since you’ve provided links to the effect, I will read them as soon as this reply is finished\*\* > > Furthermore, let’s be honest. If one of us Americans Dopers had gone to [MEMRI.org](http://MEMRI.org) and cherry-picked some Egyptian or Saudi invective against America and then used it to imply Egyptians or Saudis were hate-filled freaks, you know good and goddamn well the flood of Dopers would descend on the American Doper like flies on shit. > \*\* where exactly did I state that Americans are hate filled freaks? I have refuted this a number of times, but you do not seem to want to hear me.\*\* > > Why aren’t you, as well as the rest of the European and international dopers, as well as Americans who should know better, doing the same thing when the target is America (or an American)? We all know why – America (and its citizens) is a convenient fat fucking punching bag. Fine, I guess it goes with the territory of being the global Big Man on Campus. But, as **Anthracite** said, you sure as hell aren’t fighting ignorance. > **that was the main reason why I posted this on the Pit. I was disgusted about the incident, and wanted to vent my anger. I don’t think I did this vehemently, as you said, but then again, that’s your perception. So no, I wasn’t fighting ignorance. I was angry. Hence, the Pit. Not GD.** > > You know, yesterday around 20,000 flights or so took off and landed safely in the U.S. News of this feat did not make the American press. Therefore, since I didn’t read about it in the New York Times, I guess those flights did not happen. > > But since you were wondering: > > [Anti-French stupidity blasted by Newsday](http://www.newsday.com/features/food/ny-nydug3206674apr06,0,2085610.column?coll=ny-foodday-print) > > [Anti-France stupidity blasted by Las Vegas Review-Journal](http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Apr-01-Tue-2003/opinion/21011082.html) > > There. Are you satisfied? > **haven’t had time to read them, but thank you for providing the links** > > The overwhelming majority of Americans don’t condone stupid anti-French behavior, no matter whether we supported the war or not. You’ve now read more than a few posts on this thread from Americans who actually LIVE HERE and rightly claim there is no widespread campaign of hate and discrimination against the French (or any other Europeans). Will you – as well as other international Dopers who feel the same way about America(ns) as **elfje** seems to – please give AT LEAST equal weight to these anecdotal stories (which I guarantee are much closer to the TRUTH) as you gleefully give to this unfortunate incident among a couple of stupid Americans? > **if you read my replies to Anthracite, you’ll see that that is just what i did.** > > Will you please cease slandering our country – or at least slander your own countries or other countries that have parallel examples of anti-American crap as the story of the moronic American parents with the same vehemence? > \*\*believe me, I don’t slander the country just for the sake of slandering it. I simply took issue with 1 singular incident, I vented my anger, and that’s the end of it. And if you have followed any of my other posts, i do slam anti-americanism, for the sake of anti-americanism. If you’re going to be anti-something, you must have at least have a good reason for it. AND i have stated on numerous occasions that anti-Bush /= anti-American. > \*\* > In other words, be fucking consistent. \*\* I am. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/79 "2003-06-11T12:27:00Z")
Ok, **elfje** , if you don’t stop putting the whole of your reply inside the quotes, I’m going to hunt you down and slap you with a rotten herring. It’s driving me nuts. 🙂 Otherwise, you seem to be a nice, if misguided, person. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621/80 "2003-06-11T12:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > \*\*ok. \*\* Fair enough. I think we’ve made our positions clear to each other, and I understand yours. I really hate this sort of thing between France and the US, and France and the UK. Especially as I’ve spent so much time in France and never had anything to complain about other than an attack in the Paris Metro. Upon reflection, I wonder if there should not be some sort of substantial financial penalties for entering into a contract to support an exchange student and withdrawing for frivilous or assholic reasons (have to ask my attorney how to put “assholic” in my next contract). Or some sort of public exposure of the people who withdraw. The article talking about “unpleasantness” is bizzare to say the least. I spent some serious time searching for articles of _persons_ being attacked in the US for being French, and could not find a single one. I’m much more at risk being a lesbian than French in the US. You know what happened when post 9/11 was in full force, elfje? You want to know what the full force of the simmering hatred in mid-America here, Kansas City, a metro area population of more than a million? Someone called a mosque and left threatening messages on their answering machine. This simple and dumbass act became the lead story in the media here for nearly a solid week. Someone also sprayed some badly mis-spelled graffiti on a bridge. This prompted a “peace march”. Well shit fire and save the matches - I’ll wager I’ve had more threatening messages on my answering machine than the mosque has. And, of course, the fact that the Jewish Community Center and Menorah Medical Center get about 1-2 anonymous hate-calls a week is brushed over as well… What we are trying to say is that for people to even imply that there is some sort of simmering anti-French attitude here is, in the anecdotal (and thus, of little, but some value) as alien as saying that “every time I go to Dublin, I am amazed at the hatred shown towards Navaho Indians. My God, when will the Hate stop???” 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-schoolkids-no-longer-welcome-in-us/180621.md?page=5)