# French-speaking Dopers! How do I pronounce... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 19, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730 "2006-12-19T02:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/21 "2006-12-19T15:51:08Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] See, in this phonetic environment, I always thought that the /n/ regained saliency. My source, from memory, is a scholarly book titled \*The World’s Major Languages \* (Bernard Comrie, ed). I won’t be able to double-check until I get home. [/QUOTE] In books trying to explain French pronunciation to non-French speaking Anglophones, it is difficult to get across the concept of nasalization. Often, they say something like “the N is not quite pronounced.” In truth, the _n_ is not pronounced at all. It is simply a marker for nasalization. Un bon vin blanc. No Ns should be heard anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/22 "2006-12-19T15:52:17Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] In truth, the _n_ is not pronounced at all. [/QUOTE] … in a vowel+N unit, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/23 "2006-12-19T15:52:42Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] “Monde” doesn’t end roughly like English “pond” (different vowel, of course)? [/QUOTE] I don’t mind fighting one of you to the death, but to have to fight both of you seems a little unjust. I think in the example of the English “pond,” most people would pronounce it “pon” in ordinary speech, just to avoid tripping over the D. The D in “monde” is more strongly pronounced. Revert to my example – does everyone agree that if there were two words, “mon de,” we’d be talking about two syllables? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/24 "2006-12-19T15:58:41Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] In books trying to explain French pronunciation to non-French speaking Anglophones, it is difficult to get across the concept of nasalization. Often, they say something like “the N is not quite pronounced.” In truth, the _n_ is not pronounced at all. It is simply a marker for nasalization. Un bon vin blanc. No Ns should be heard anywhere. [/QUOTE] This isn’t the issue. The book I am referring to is not for the layman … detailed phonetic information is given about the French phonetic system (based on the Île-de-France dialect, IIRC). The reader is expected to understand IPA notation, so the pronunciation descriptions are as close to exacting as one can get without recordings. Unfortunately, I am working from memory, so I’ll have to wait until I can get my hands on the book later on to confirm. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/25 "2006-12-19T16:00:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I think in the example of the English “pond,” most people would pronounce it “pon” in ordinary speech, just to avoid tripping over the D. [/QUOTE] :dubious: English speakers? I say it “po **nd** ” everytime :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/26 "2006-12-19T16:12:51Z")
Not me. It’s usually pon’. The “d” dies somewhere on the vine. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/27 "2006-12-19T16:23:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Revert to my example – does everyone agree that if there were two words, “mon de,” we’d be talking about two syllables? [/QUOTE] Okay, but how is this relevant? The English word _queued_ has one syllable. By arbitrarily breaking it into two words – say _que ued_ – what good would it do to ask whether you would pronounce it as one or two syllables? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/28 "2006-12-19T16:25:32Z")
But it’s not arbitrary – I’m contending that “monde” and “mon de” are pronounced the same way, whether as one word or two. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/29 "2006-12-19T16:48:43Z")
I always pronounce the “d” at the end of “pond.” If I heard someone saying “pon” I would think that they were talking about a chess piece unless I caught the context of the usage. **Sal Ammoniac** , is it kind of like the pronunciation of the “de” is like a strong “d” with a kind of forceful exhale at the trailing end? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/30 "2006-12-19T16:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] But it’s not arbitrary – I’m contending that “monde” and “mon de” are pronounced the same way, whether as one word or two. [/QUOTE] Okay, it’s time that a real expert on French pronunciation stepped in – but until then, I’ll just offer my uncredentialed understanding – Except for _C_, _R_, _F_, and _L_, the final letter in French words is generally silent, including E. Specifically, word-final E in French, except for a handful (10 or so?) of very short words, like _le_ and _de_, is generally silent and serves to indicate that the preceding letter is not silent. So, if it were _mond_, then it would be pronounced [mo~]. But the _E_ at the end of _monde_ indicates that it is pronounced [mo~d]. _Mon de_ would be pronounced [mo~ d@]. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/31 "2006-12-19T17:09:18Z")
To extend my example, I would contend that _“mon deux-roues”_ and _“monde roux”_ are pronounced exactly the same, _“deux”_ and _“de”_ being homonyms in my book, even if the dictionary contends they’re pronounced differently – yet another can of worms, I supppose. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/32 "2006-12-19T17:32:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] To extend my example, I would contend that _“mon deux-roues”_ [/quote] [mo~ d ru] > [@](#): > > and _“monde roux”_ [mo~d ru] > [@](#): > > _“deux”_ and _“de”_ being homonyms in my book, even if the dictionary contends they’re pronounced differently – yet another can of worms, I supppose. Exactly how do you think you’re going to help someone with French pronunciation if you’re going to proceed from such assumptions? _deux_ is [dY] (as in German O-umlaut) _de_ is [d@] (a sound that exists in neither English nor German, but is usually likened to the central, unaccented vowel in English (schwa) – it’s like a very short French _U_ (as in German U-umlaut)) I’m coming to the conclusion, **Sal** , that you’re talking through your hat, and it’s not a beret, at that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/33 "2006-12-19T17:34:25Z")
Crap. Try again mon deux-roues = [mo~ dY ru] monde roux = [mo~d ru] ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/34 "2006-12-19T17:36:59Z")
**acsenray** is correct, _monde_ is only one syllable. I’m a French speaker, more precisely a Quebec French speaker, where this beer comes from. I might later try to write phonetically how I would pronounce all these beers (which to my chagrin I have never actually tasted), but I find it hard to write how to pronounce words. And anyway, I think **Quiddity Glomfuster** gets closer than I could. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/35 "2006-12-19T17:42:35Z")
I suppose you’re also going to say that _roux_/_rue_ or _voudrais_/_voudrez_ are homonyms? Cause they ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/36 "2006-12-19T19:17:30Z")
IMO, any discussion of Unibroue beers starts and ends with _Trois Pistoles_. Once you’ve tasted it, you won’t want to drink anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/37 "2006-12-19T19:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I suppose you’re also going to say that _roux_/_rue_ or _voudrais_/_voudrez_ are homonyms? Cause they ain’t. [/QUOTE] _Roux/rue_ no, _voudrais/voudrez_ yes. (And I meant homophones, rather than homonyms – sorry.) I don’t doubt that a dictionary might indicate that _voudrais/voudrez_ are pronounced differently, same as for _deux/de_. But does an actual real French speaker say these two words differently? I hear no difference personally, but maybe I have a tin ear. I think for the purposes of buying beer, however, close enough is good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/38 "2006-12-19T19:36:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] _Roux/rue_ no, _voudrais/voudrez_ yes. [/QUOTE] I pronounce _voudrais_ and _voudrez_ distinctly differently. _Voudrais_ ends with an [open-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_front_unrounded_vowel), and _voudrez_ with a [close-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel). They don’t sound the same. On the other hand, it’s possible that in some dialects of French (maybe some that are found in France) these two sounds might get confused. But in my dialect, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/39 "2006-12-19T19:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] IMO, any discussion of Unibroue beers starts and ends with _Trois Pistoles_. Once you’ve tasted it, you won’t want to drink anything else. [/QUOTE] Dammit! I _knew_ I forgot one!! OK, so how does one pronounce “Trois Pistoles”? I’ve been saying, “Troy peh-STOW-lehs” which to me sounds WAY too Spanish… ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/40 "2006-12-19T19:45:00Z")
As well, _deux_ ends with a [close-mid front rounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_rounded_vowel), and _de_ with what I believe is called a [schwa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730.md?page=3)