# French-speaking Dopers! How do I pronounce... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 19, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730 "2006-12-19T02:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/41 "2006-12-19T19:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] (And I meant homophones, rather than homonyms – sorry.) [/QUOTE] No need to apologize. Homophones and homographs are two kinds of homonyms, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/42 "2006-12-19T19:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=severus] I pronounce _voudrais_ and _voudrez_ distinctly differently. _Voudrais_ ends with an [open-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_front_unrounded_vowel), and _voudrez_ with a [close-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel). They don’t sound the same. [/QUOTE] Okay, I’ll take your word for it. I’m having difficulty conceptualizing the difference between an open-mid front unrounded vowel and a close-mid front unrounded vowel. Can you put it for me in these terms: if you have a spectrum, at one end of which is the English “ay” sound (as in say), and the other end of which is the “ee” sound (as in see), where would \*voudrez \*fall, as opposed to _voudrais_, on this spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/43 "2006-12-19T19:51:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Can you put it for me in these terms: if you have a spectrum, at one end of which is the English “ay” sound (as in say), and the other end of which is the “ee” sound (as in see), where would \*voudrez \*fall, as opposed to _voudrais_, on this spectrum? [/QUOTE] “Voudrez” is like the vowel in “dray,” but without the diphthongal glide at the end. “Voudrais” is like the vowel in “dent.” ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/44 "2006-12-19T19:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] No need to apologize. Homophones and homographs are two kinds of homonyms, eh? [/QUOTE] Ach… depends on which source you like. Says [here](http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=homophone) that homophones are two words that are pronounced the same way but differ in meaning or spelling or both (e.g. bare and bear) – which is what I was getting at. Whether that also makes them homonyms is not for a mere mortal like I to say, though I’d draw the line at “homograph.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/45 "2006-12-19T19:56:13Z")
Trois-Pistoles, hmmm? Trw_a_ (the w is very light, and _a_ is as in [this vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel)) Peest_a_l (I wrote ee because the actual sound is a little like this vowel in American English, but shorter, and the _a_ is actually the same vowel as the previous _a_, or close enough anyway). Hope this helps in some way. And then again, the actual pronounciation will vary depending on the dialect of French. I’m presenting the way _I_ would pronounce it. It’s very possible that in the city of Trois-Pistoles, they don’t pronounce it exactly the same way! ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/46 "2006-12-19T19:59:20Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] “Voudrez” is like the vowel in “dray,” but without the diphthongal glide at the end. “Voudrais” is like the vowel in “dent.” [/QUOTE] I tell you, if I had all the money in the world, I would go to Paris, get a bunch of people, ask them to say _voudrais_ and \*voudrez \*into a microphone, then play back the results to another set of people and see if they could tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/47 "2006-12-19T20:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Can you put it for me in these terms: if you have a spectrum, at one end of which is the English “ay” sound (as in say), and the other end of which is the “ee” sound (as in see), where would \*voudrez \*fall, as opposed to _voudrais_, on this spectrum? [/QUOTE] **acsenray** has already answered, and I agree with his answer. But this said, the graphic in the Wikipedia article is, in my non-expert opinion (I’m not a linguist), quite good, as it does show the spectrum. The [open-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_front_unrounded_vowel) is the e as in _bet_. The “ay” sound is a [close-mid front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel) with, as acsenray mentioned, some diphtongation at the end. The “ee” sound is a long [close front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_front_unrounded_vowel). The spectrum actually goes from the close front unrounded vowel to the open-mid front unrounded vowel (the Wikipedia article also goes further, to the [open front unrounded vowel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_front_unrounded_vowel), which I believe sounds somewhat like the a in _bat_). On this spectrum, _voudrais_ falls in the open-mid zone (like _bet_) and _voudrez_ in the close-mid zone (like “ay” without the diphtong). If any actual linguist can explain it better than I can, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/48 "2006-12-19T20:20:29Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > I tell you, if I had all the money in the world, I would go to Paris, get a bunch of people, ask them to say voudrais and voudrez into a microphone, then play back the results to another set of people and see if they could tell the difference. I guess you are a native English speaker. As far as I know standard English doesn’t contain the _long_ unrounded close-mid front vowel. That’s also the reason why English speakers pronounce “café” similar to “cafay.” In English this difference doesn’t distinguish between any pair of words and therefore English speakers aren’t trained to recognize it. For speakers of languages where there are such distinctions - like French or German - the two sound noticeably different. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/49 "2006-12-19T20:52:32Z")
Thanks to all of you, by the way, and especially to **Cuckoorex** for his patience with stuff that’s a wee bit peripheral to the OP. One final question for **Ascenray** and **Severus** : are you saying that the distinction between the -ez of voudrez and the -ais of voudrais is the same as the distinction between é and è? Such that _voudrez_ might be written _voudré_, and voudrais as _voudrè_? Or are those yet a different set of sounds? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/50 "2006-12-19T20:56:05Z")
You can listen to the pronunciations here: [error](http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php) It seems to be in line with what’s been said. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/51 "2006-12-19T21:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=Cuckoorex] The following beer names? Maudite (I’ve been saying, “maw-deet”) Don de Dieu (Done day day-oo?) Chambly Noire (Shamblee no-are?) La fin du Monde (Lah feen do mon-day?) Unibroue (You na brough?) [/QUOTE] I can’t speak Quebecois, though I’ve heard it at Cirque du Soleil, but AFAIR someone from NE France would pronounce them something like: Maw-deet Don (as in the mobster) de (short) Dyoo Shaamblee Noir (as in choir) La fan (short A) do (long o) Monde (one syllable, soft D) U-ni-brew ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/52 "2006-12-19T21:25:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] One final question for **Ascenray** and **Severus** : are you saying that the distinction between the -ez of voudrez and the -ais of voudrais is the same as the distinction between é and è? Such that _voudrez_ might be written _voudré_, and voudrais as _voudrè_? [/QUOTE] Pretty much, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/53 "2006-12-19T21:35:11Z")
Damn! I’m on much more solid ground with the é/è distinction. The trouble is, no one ever told me that _voudrais_ is pronounced with the è sound. Unfortunately, it’s not just that the distinction is subtle to American ears, it’s that this is one of those accent faults that doesn’t impair understanding. As a consequence, no one bothers much about correcting it. Oh, well, three cheers to the SDMB for performing its primordial function. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/54 "2006-12-19T21:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=rowrrbazzle] You can listen to the pronunciations here: [http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php](http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php) It seems to be in line with what’s been said. [/QUOTE] That site rules. Thanks for the link! ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730/55 "2006-12-19T22:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I tell you, if I had all the money in the world, I would go to Paris, get a bunch of people, ask them to say _voudrais_ and \*voudrez \*into a microphone, then play back the results to another set of people and see if they could tell the difference. [/QUOTE] Parisians don’t all mark this distinction clearly, but most do. My son’s a native French speaker and I’m not. He periodically gives me crap about not marking the difference enough. In my defense though, how marked the distinction is varies from person to person and accent to accent. Another good example of this distinction is _près_ (close/near), _prêt_ (ready/loan), and _pré_ (meadow). _Près_ is pronounced sort of like the ‘pre’ in ‘press’ and _pré_ is sort of like ‘pray’. As for all those beers - I had no idea that Québec had so many beers ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-speaking-dopers-how-do-i-pronounce/384730.md?page=2)