# French troops make the "Fallujah Marine" incident look like a mercy killing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022 "2004-11-22T01:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/21 "2004-11-22T07:54:19Z")
I think most here know my opinion of the French. These videos are on my “suspected propaganda” list. There’s audio of everything happening, but no commentary. This could be because it was someone with a Sony Handycam, or it could be because it was a set-up. The set-up was my thought when I saw all the women shown topless with seemingly no injuries. Panic attacks at best. And the headless guy. Well, I hope it was what it looked like, a cheap special effect. Judging the entire thing (both sequences) it looks like the viewer is supposed to sympathize with the innocent crowd being fired upon, and therefore sympathize with all Iraqi’s. The army in question being French would help reinforce this idea. I hope to God this was staged. If not, yeah, we’ll take out France. And we won’t wait 50 years. I hope I’m right in thinking this is a joke thread. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/22 "2004-11-22T08:04:12Z")
[IVORY COAST LEADER CLAIMS FRENCH TROOPS DECAPITATED DEMONSTRATORS](http://www.adetocqueville.com/200411202216.iakmgge22272.htm) > [@](#): > > PARIS, Nov 20 (AFP) - Ivory Coast leader Laurent Gbagbo said Saturday he believed reports were true that French troops had decapitated local demonstrators during anti-French riots in the west African state this month. > “I wasn’t in the hospitals myself but everyone who went there said so: you may take it that the evidence provided by several people is true,” he responded online from Abidjan to a website discussion in Paris. > Asked by AFP, French army information services in Paris would say only: “We have no comment to make on this kind of statement.” [Fleeing French arrive with stories of terror](http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1349471,00.html) > [@](#): > > "I was lucky; the helicopter landed almost on my lawn, in the middle of the night. > "There was a knock on my door, and a voice said, ‘You’ve got three seconds to make your mind up.’ > “I took off sitting on a pile of ammunition, like in a film. I saw someone who had lost an eye. The soldiers said there were deaths, people had been decapitated, women had been raped.” ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/23 "2004-11-22T08:37:40Z")
Hmm… the Hotel Ivoire in Abidjan. I haven’t see that since I was 6 years old in 1964. I used to play by the pool. My parents listened to Miriam Makeba sing there. Times have changed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/24 "2004-11-22T08:49:52Z")
[France scorns beheading claim](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4030125.stm) > [@](#): > > France has scornfully rejected a claim by Ivory Coast’s president and its top Roman Catholic cleric that French troops beheaded young protesters there. > Officials condemned President Laurent Gbagbo’s “disinformation” and urged him to stop fuelling anti-French hatred. > > Cardinal Bernard Agre said last week he had seen young girls decapitated by the French army - a charge President Gbagbo said he believed to be true. > > The civil war reignited on 4 November, when Ivorian forces attacked rebels. > > ‘Outrageous claims’ > > French Defence Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said the “outrageousness” of the claims “strips them of any credibility”. > > “These charges amount to disinformation similar to President Gbagbo’s doubts about the reality of the French military victims in Bouake,” she told France-Inter radio. As for the video, contrary to the OP’s sensacionalist charges and his obvious scorn for the French, it is impossible to draw any definitive conclusions from it. Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/25 "2004-11-22T09:07:20Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > and therefore sympathize with all Iraqi’s. 😕 eh, I’m assuming its jut a typo. and while some of it does make me go “huh” as to why exactly things happened the way they did those wounds looked pretty damn real to me. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/26 "2004-11-22T09:22:24Z")
> [@clayton\_e](#): > > 😕 > > eh, I’m assuming its jut a typo. > > and while some of it does make me go “huh” as to why exactly things happened the way they did those wounds looked pretty damn real to me. I didn’t say it was bullshit. I’m just waiting for confirmation. The wounds in _Saving Private Ryan_, _Goodfellas_, _Rambo_, etc all looked pretty real as well. Though none of those had the gratuitous tit shots during the violent scenes. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/27 "2004-11-22T09:38:03Z")
It does seem like the French troops opened up on the crowd. There’s a lot of people hit. We only see one actual French soldier firing however. At the end of the 2nd video we see some burning cars one of the has UN on the front. Whether this is after the incident or during is unclear. I would have been very helpful to have a voice over telling what was happening. From he evidence given it certainly looks like the bastards opened up on a large unarmed crowd that didn’t seem like it was too threatening but it’s hard to tell. If there was other evidence or better backed up reports made I’m sure they’ll start to hit the mainstream press over here soon. The BBC has several stories none of which seem to address this specific incident but do give some background. [In pictures: Ivory Coast erupts](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3991033.stm) [Eyewitness: Mobs rampage in Abidjan](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3992289.stm) [France’s Ivorian quagmire](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3993265.stm) As to mentioning this with Iraq I don’t see the reason to. Other than to try to do some childish finger pointing. It has no relationship to the US and Iraq at all other than it being another possible incident of heavy handed troops killing unarmed civilians. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/28 "2004-11-22T09:43:14Z")
If the French forces shot unarmed peaceful protesters then they should be loudly condemned. There seems some question whether they were shooting at peaceful protesters or a mob bent on violence to foreign nationals. > [@](#): > > ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast (AP) - French forces opened fire Tuesday as protesters massed between the Ivory Coast president’s home and an evacuation post for foreigners. A hospital reported seven people were killed and more than 200 wounded. > [@](#): > > The U.N. Security Council, African Union, European Union and a bloc of West African leaders have all condemned Gbagbo’s government in the violence, which began when Ivory Coast warplanes killed nine French peacekeepers and an American aid worker in an airstrike on the rebel-held north. > > France, Ivory Coast’s former colonial ruler, wiped out the nation’s small air force in retaliation, sparking anti-French rampages by mobs of thousands in the fiercely nationalist south. [French Troops Fire Into Ivory Coast Crowd](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4605114,00.html) [Timeline of recent history of Ivory Coast](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1043106.stm) And the government seems in the ‘mob’ business. > [@](#): > > Ivory Coast President Laurent Gbagbo has called the air strikes on Korhogo and Bouake an operation “to liberate and reunify the country” divided between rebel north and government south since a failed September 2002 coup sparked a civil war. > > The raids have been widely condemned as a violation of an 18-month-old ceasefire reached under a January 2003 peace pact to address root causes of the uprising such as nationality, land ownership and eligibility for president for the country’s 17 million people – one quarter of whom have roots elsewhere. > > Rebel leader Guillaume Soro told AFP that at least 85 civilians were killed in three days of raids that were followed by cuts in power, water and telephone services across the north, but those figures have not been confirmed. > > A final raid Saturday by Gbagbo’s forces hit a French military camp in Bouake, killing nine French soldiers and a US civilian in what French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier has called a “deliberate” attack. > > France riposted by wiping out most of the small Ivorian air force, seizing the airport and sending tanks onto the bridges spanning Abidjan’s lagoon. > > The aggressive response sent anti-French sentiment soaring. Gbagbo partisans commandeered national radio and television with “hate” messages urging protesters into the streets to loot, injure and, according to humanitarian sources in Abidjan, rape. > > The “patriots” were on the streets again Wednesday, heading towards the upmarket Cocody district that has been ruthlessly pillaged and into the downtown Plateau area to “defend” the national radio station, which blared snippets of Ivorian reggae icon Alpha Blondy’s anthem against the French military. > > Confrontations between the French military and Gbagbo’s supporters have been violent and bloody, with a clash late Tuesday turning the parking lot of the luxury Hotel Ivoire, a kilometer (half-mile) from Gbagbo’s residence, into a bloodbath. [Exodus from Ivory Coast as foreigners, citizens flee violence](http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041110/1/3oesi.html) I want it investigated as a possible war crime and justice served. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/29 "2004-11-22T09:44:17Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Imperialist France is at it again… Describing France as being imperialistic is also a little misleading. It’s true that it’s the former colonial power, but the French troops are stationed there as peace-keepers. There is a UN mandate for them to be there. For a year and a half, they’ve managed to keep two sides seem to be intent on mutual destruction. The French government were the guys who brokered the fragile truce in the Ivorian civil war last year. I haven’t seen the video, nor do I know what happened in this particular incident, but to use the world imperialist is, well, silly. If you want to read a little bot more on the background of the situaution, the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3993265.stm) has an interesting introduction. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/30 "2004-11-22T11:58:39Z")
The fact that so many seemingly non-bloody people were lying on the ground, half-undressed and being fanned, and that afterwards the ground is soaking wet where it had been dry earlier in the footage (in the second clip) suggests many of the injured were hurt in a stampede prompted by the use of water canon rather than were shot. The few nicks and cuts could have been from rubber bullets while the shot of the unattached limb seems hard to pin on the use of firearms. It is hard to verify that the one, awful scene towards the end with the mans head blown apart actually happened at the same incident as did the rest of the footage as it seems out of context and could well have been spliced in. I have no doubt that some sort of stand-off took place but, on the evidence present - not having time to download the first clip, I would suggest the video has been manipulated somewhat to exaggerate the culpability of the French. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/31 "2004-11-22T12:08:39Z")
\*\* (??) The French say that the claims that they beheaded demonstrators are “outrageous” and “[stripped of credibility](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4031727.stm)”. The demonstration was in response to the French destroying aircraft which had killed nine peacekeepers, and was clearly contrived by the Ivorian government which is indulging in some blatant anti-French rhetoric (_de rigeur_ in international diplomacy these days, it seems. I have not seen the video, but the fact that it has not been picked up by _any_ international news agency (and the BBC rarely misses an opportunity to stick one on the French) is a little fishy. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/32 "2004-11-22T13:10:43Z")
I think the “beheading” claim is pretty easy to figure out. There was a man lying on the street with no head. Somewhere along the line that morphed into a beheading. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/33 "2004-11-22T13:16:46Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [France scorns beheading claim](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4030125.stm) > > As for the video, contrary to the OP’s sensacionalist charges and his obvious scorn for the French, it is impossible to draw any definitive conclusions from it. > > Asshole. Yea its sooo much more noble to scorn the US isn’t it? Interesting how you’re critical of sources in a thread criticizing the French but don’t mind taking an eyewitness account from from an Iraqi coming from a Mosque that was just “stormed” in your own thread. > **[Winning hearts and minds -- The American Way](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287726)** > > \*\*Iraqi and U.S. troops raid Baghdad mosque\*\* \*\* Check out how the story’s playing in Iraq: Eyewitness to US Forces Raiding a Mosque \*\* Meanwhile, DimSon recieves a warm welcome in Santiago, Chile, for his sterling efforts in bringing the... Hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/34 "2004-11-22T13:18:18Z")
That’s a hell of a dangling modifier in my last post. Apologies to all. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/35 "2004-11-22T13:23:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > That’s a hell of a dangling modifier in my last post. Apologies to all. If your modifier is dangling out here on public, zip your fly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/36 "2004-11-22T13:26:02Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > That’s a hell of a dangling modifier in my last post. Apologies to all. Too late. We’ll have to take _you_ out sometime in the next 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/37 "2004-11-22T13:50:20Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Did I say it did? Here’s something I’m not sure I’ve ever seen on this board: I think **Reeder** is right. Between the title of your thread, which brings up Iraq for no reason, the out-of-nowhere mention of Iraqi debt, and the tone of the OP, with references to ‘imperialist France’ that come across as mockeries of people who call America imperialist, it DOES sound like you’re just trying to stick it to the French - ‘see, see, you’re bad too, suck it!’ - instead of earnestly decrying something that is horrible enough if it happened as described. If that’s not what you intended, it’s just a case of misreading. But I see where he’s coming from. This supposedly happened on the 20th? I’m not even seeing much in the way of reporting the allegations. I looked (admittedly quickly) at CBS, ABC, CNN, FOX, the New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press, Reuters and the BBC and didn’t find even a mention of what would be a serious atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/38 "2004-11-22T13:56:35Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Yea its sooo much more noble to scorn the US isn’t it? Interesting how you’re critical of sources in a thread criticizing the French but don’t mind taking an eyewitness account from from an Iraqi coming from a Mosque that was just “stormed” in your own thread. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287726](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287726) > > Hypocrisy. …I don’t want to speak for **Redfury** , but I think his point is illustrated by the following quote in his OP: > [@](#): > > Check out how the story’s playing in Iraq: says it all, doesn’t it? Lets, for the sake of this discussion, make the assumption that everything stated by Abu Talat weren’t a completely accurate picture of what happened in the mosque. Does that change the way the story is played out in Iraq? The reliability of the eyewitness isn’t important, when the message that he is relating strikes a chord with other Iraqi’s… ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/39 "2004-11-22T14:04:58Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > ``` > The reliability of the eyewitness isn't important, when the message that he is relating strikes a chord with other Iraqi's... > > ``` Quite, all the childish bleating of ‘they started it’ etc from the usual morons here aside. If the game is hearts and minds you have to be clever, not do precisely what the enemy wants each time and in a way calculated to create more insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/40 "2004-11-22T14:11:58Z")
Man, these videos really need some context. In the first one, noone seems to be injured severely. At the time the gunfire is going on, most everyone is laying down. After it stops everyone gets back up again and starts yelling at the french soldiers. Some even close the distance between the protestors and the soldiers. The only wounds shown are a couple of scrapes and one possible bullet wound to the leg. Most of the other people shown seem to be suffering from dehydration. Lots of shaky people but not a lot of hardcore injury. IMHO, the french either fired rubber bullets or were aiming warning shots above the crowd to disperse them for the vehicles shown in the second tape. The second tape is worse than the first. The beginning shows them on dirt (as opposed to the cement in the first)and they appear to be closer to the soldiers shown in the first. In one part the soldiers that they were close to appear to be african, but the video is so shaky that it’s hard to tell if it is even the same area. It looks like there are more bullet wounds in this one, or the wounds look more severe. Quite a few passed out or out of it people receiving water. The two most indicting parts are the severed limb and the missing head, but they also lack any sort of context. I’m no expert on bullet wounds, but they would have to be throwing some powerful ammo around to do something like that to a person. The second video is inconclusive to me. I’m not even sure if the first part of the video comes from the same place as the second part. Overall, I can’t make a judgement. The lack of international outcry makes me think that this is highly fishy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022.md?page=3)