# French troops make the "Fallujah Marine" incident look like a mercy killing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022 "2004-11-22T01:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/41 "2004-11-22T14:15:51Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …I don’t want to speak for **Redfury** , but I think his point is illustrated by the following quote in his OP: > > says it all, doesn’t it? Lets, for the sake of this discussion, make the assumption that everything stated by Abu Talat weren’t a completely accurate picture of what happened in the mosque. Does that change the way the story is played out in Iraq? The reliability of the eyewitness isn’t important, when the message that he is relating strikes a chord with other Iraqi’s… You’re right. I take that back. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/42 "2004-11-22T14:19:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Here’s something I’m not sure I’ve ever seen on this board: I think **Reeder** is right. Between the title of your thread, which brings up Iraq for no reason, the out-of-nowhere mention of Iraqi debt, and the tone of the OP, with references to ‘imperialist France’ that come across as mockeries of people who call America imperialist, it DOES sound like you’re just trying to stick it to the French - ‘see, see, you’re bad too, suck it!’ - instead of earnestly decrying something that is horrible enough if it happened as described. If that’s not what you intended, it’s just a case of misreading. But I see where he’s coming from. Highlighting French hypocrisy for their sins doesn’t mean I’m excusing the Fallujah marine for his. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/43 "2004-11-22T14:26:33Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Highlighting French hypocrisy for their sins doesn’t mean I’m excusing the Fallujah marine for his. If it really happened, this is (as I said) an atrocity or a war crime or something on that level. That makes small potatoes of hypocrisy. Although I’m not sure if you can blame the French government for it. Anyway, not the point. I don’t think it sounded like you were excusing the guy in Fallujah. I do think it sounded like you were using the incident as an excuse to dump on the French instead of reacting to something really terrible. If it happened. The way you’ve emphasized the hypocrisy part of the deal, in addition to the other stuff I mentioned, drives it home. It makes you sound happy that the French have proven they’re on our level. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/44 "2004-11-22T14:40:39Z")
The thing is that even if France nuked the whole continent it still wouldn’t make them wrong about Iraq. They turned out to be right about the lack of urgency when it came to WMD. One of the things that really pisses me off over the last few years is how Bush has made me actually agree with Chirac on something :mad: If this incident turns out to be as bad as it’s talked about by some in this thread then I’d hope that France and the soldiers involved would be condemned and prosecuted to the highest level. To the ICC if necessary which could be a possibility as France has signed up but it would involve France not carrying out their own prosecution for it to go that far. Exactly the same as I would if it was Irish, British, American or any other country’s troops involved. Troops do not get a carte blanche just because they are deployed. They have to follow the rules of law and engagement. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/45 "2004-11-22T15:52:29Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Yea its sooo much more noble to scorn the US isn’t it? Interesting how you’re critical of sources in a thread criticizing the French but don’t mind taking an eyewitness account from from an Iraqi coming from a Mosque that was just “stormed” in your own thread. > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287726](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287726) > > Hypocrisy. Keep bleating, fucktard. Youre obviously looking for some sort of moral eqivalence between the French actions in the Ivory Coast – a UN sanctioned operation, least you forget – and your own murderous Iraq invasion. Guess what, dickweed? You’ve got precious little for the time being – other than a dubious unsourced video that looks suspect at best and conflicts with most news reports from the area. However, should these, or any other war crimes, be proven to have been commited by the French, I’ll stand right there, front and center condemning them as well. Difference being, that unlike you, I won’t be shooting my wad on some highly inconclusive video put together by such a credible source as Who The Fuck Knows. As for my using **Dahr Jamail** as a source, why not? Until someone proves otherwise, he is a [**legitimate indepependent reporter**](http://dahrjamailiraq.com/index.php) whose articles are widely distributed. He also does some radio reporting for the very BBC. Don’t like the fact that he is not in bed with the US forces or their puppet Gov? Tough titty. In fact, that only raises his credibility in my own eyes. Like I said, prove him wrong. Meanwhile, [\*\*the French were, and are, still right about Iraq](http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2003/1107nj1.htm)\*\*. Froth on, cowpoke. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/46 "2004-11-22T16:17:01Z")
I searched around a little. It’s pretty clear that french soldiers opened fire on a crowd. But the details aren’t clear at all. I couldn’t tell : -What were the circumstances (how hostile was the crowd, who opened fire first…) -How many people were killed. I found mentions of 4 people, of 7 people, of 30 people, of “much more than 30” -Whether or not they were killed by the fire, or for the most part trampled when the crowd dispersed after a warning fire. - What weapons were used. I found mentions of “heavy weapons” and of “a 20 mm gun”. Here’s a sum up of the take of the paper “Le Monde” on the issue : > [@](#): > > Sept morts à Abidjan. Des militaires français ont effectué mardi à Abidjan des tirs de sommation, déclenchant une bousculade faisant au moins sept morts et plusieurs blessés. Les “jeunes patriotes”, partisans du président Laurent Gbagbo s’étaient rassemblés un peu plus tôt, non loin du complexe de l’Hôtel Ivoire contrôlé par les soldats français. “seven killed in Abidjan. French military fired warning shots, resulting in a stampede, leaving at least seven persons dead and several wounded. The “young patriots”, supporters of president Gbagbo had gathered moments before, close to the Hotel Ivoire occupied by the french military”. I didn’t download the video. I saw however a footage with a couple people lying dead on the pavement, but I couldn’t tell what killed them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/47 "2004-11-22T17:20:50Z")
I’m reserving judgement here, and in this I’m in agreement, apparantly, with you, **clairobscur**. I find it funny, though, that you haven’t shown similar restraint in the past, with another country’s soldiers. [From this thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286844&page=2) > [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s unlikely [that it was an isolated incident]. Such a thing would have happened only once, and out of chance, there was a TV team at this precise place and time? I don’t buy it. > > I do not doubt it happened many times. Actually, even without this video, I wouldn’t have doubted it did. What else could I assume? I don’t think the US troops are all wise and saintly men, who always keep a cold head in any circumstances, and are totally immune to vile feelings such as hate or fear. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/48 "2004-11-22T18:16:03Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’m reserving judgement here, and in this I’m in agreement, apparantly, with you, **clairobscur**. > > I find it funny, though, that you haven’t shown similar restraint in the past, with another country’s soldiers. Why so? The french soldiers haven’t been involved in heavy fightings, nor for months in a row, and there are much less of them. The situtation isn’t at all similar. If it’s what you think, I’ve no doubt french soldiers would shot people in the head, or torture them, etc… if they were in the same situation. Why would you assume I believe french soldiers are saintly men, etc, etc…? It’s not like there’s no precedent. This thread was about a particular incident, I searched for infos about this incident and reported what I found, that’s all. If you read the thread you linked to, you’ll note that I didn’t state that the involved soldier was a cold-blooded murderer. I’m just convinced that similar incidents happened a lot, and that cold-blood murder happened too. Believing that torture only happens when some soldier take pictures to boast about it, or shooting dead wounded prisonners only when there’s a TV camera around, and acting all surprised when the pictures/ footage are aired is just naive. This particular footage in Falujah is only relevant because there are still a number of people believing that american soldiers are angels, and it shows them that they’re mistaken. Arguing about how guilty the soldier was is still only relevant for people who would still believe it’s an isolated incident, hence would think that if they can justify it, there’s nothing else to bother about. In the grand picture, the civilians killed in bombings is a much more serious issue. I mean, you blow up residential buildings in order to take out an insurgent leader, bomb the hell out of a large city, and you’re highly bothered by a soldier shooting dead a prisonner? Of course, he should be tried and all, but it’s not like there’s nothing else very wrong going on. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/49 "2004-11-22T23:17:19Z")
Something about that first video has been bugging me all day and I just figured it out. It came from seeing a lot of people asking if the crowd was rowdy. If you watch the first video again, you can see the only barricade was a simple light-weight rope cordoning them off. With none of them crossing that boundary. I’m 50/50 on what really happened. (Real or staged) ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/50 "2004-11-23T00:12:58Z")
What were all those Irish folks doing there? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/51 "2004-11-24T14:44:48Z")
An update: From: [Transatlantic Intelligencer: Outrageous Intolerable Incitement: the Ivory Coast and France, France and America](http://trans-int.blogspot.com/2004/11/outrageous-intolerable-incitement.html) > [@](#): > > The French forces are accused of having fired into the crowd. Depending on sources, anywhere from 7 to upwards of 60 Ivorians are said to have been killed in the incident, with many more wounded. Not only is this allegation in itself plausible, but a spokesperson for the French army admitted in an November 14 interview with the Swiss television channel TSR that it is true. Here is a link to the TSR interview: [[http://www.freewillblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/4754/](http://www.freewillblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/4754/) ](hat tip Seewen commenting on the Free Will Blog). > > Colonel Gérard Dubois justified these actions as “legitimate self-defense” in response to fire coming from pro-Gbagbo “Young Patriot” militia members allegedly using the crowd as cover. From: [Little Green Footballs](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=13696_What_Happened_in_Ivory_Coast) referring to a story on a Swiss News Channel (go to the page for a link to video) > [@](#): > > It’s an interview in French, made on Swiss TV the 14th November. > > ``` > With [the first] link you see the little reportage made by swiss journalists. > > Swiss journalists says “we heard A LOT of witnesses. All are Swiss, no Ivory. All say the same thing: French army did shoot the crowd.” > > ``` The NYT doesn’t mention this in their article entitled “France is cast as the villain in Ivory Coast” : > **[France Is Cast as the Villain in Ivory Coast (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/world/france-is-cast-as-the-villain-in-ivory-coast.html)** > > France is being cast as true enemy in wake of Ivoirian Air Force's disastrous accidental strike against French and United Nations peacekeepers and French response that provoked rioting and brought country to brink of renewed war; thousands of French... This is just insane. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/52 "2004-11-24T17:08:01Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > From: [Little Green Footballs](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=13696_What_Happened_in_Ivory_Coast) > > referring to a story on a Swiss News Channel (go to the page for a link to video) > . I could eventually watch the videos of the incident, thanks to a link provided by one of the poster on this page. I still can’t watch these “real xobix” videos, though, like the interview of the witnesses or of the french officer. I would tend to assume the videos are genuine, since they seem to match the testimonies. The incident has been mentionned in the medias, both on TV and in papers, but only briefly and without much precisions, giving the impression that some sort of clash happened resulting in some deaths. There has been an overwhelmingly more important coverage of the attacks against the french military position, against the french expatriates and of the rampages and destruction of franch-owned buildings like schools. Unfortunately, during the last two weeks, I didn’t listen to “Radio France International” that covers quite extensively African news, something that I usually do every day. They would probably have given more detailled accounts. I checked the site of the french ministery of defense, but theres’s only one document refering to this incident, the transcript of the interview of a representant of the army aired on a french radio. And he’s using what we call the “langue de bois” (wooden tongue), IOW, he does speak, but he says nothing. The most relevant bit is the following : > [@](#): > > Vous parlez des ivoiriens, hier lors des graves incidents qu’il y a eu autour de l’hôtel Ivoire, ce sont les forces ivoiriennes de sécurité qui étaient entre la foule et les soldats français qui étaient à l’hôtel Ivoire, qui ont été malmenées, bousculées, par une foule qui a fait l’objet d’un début de panique provoquée. Donc face à une situation extrêmement difficile, nos forces font preuve d’un très grand calme, d’un grand sang-froid et d’une maîtrise de la violence qui est liée à l’expérience qu’ils ont depuis qu’ils sont engagés dans ces situations difficiles. It’s really not worth translating. For people who don’t speak french, roughly, he says there has been serious incidents, there was a crowd, there were french soldiers, there was Ivorian security forces between them, a panic was caused by something, the situation was very difficult, and the french troops displayed a lot of restraint. There’s no information whatsoever about what happened. There’s not even a mention of any shooting. My position would be quite accurately summed up by a post on the page you linked to : > [@DaveK](#): > > The biggest outrage in all of this awful incident is that the UN and the French would rather sweep it under the rug, instead of finding out what went so terribly wrong. > > Perhaps (and I think it likely, but don’t know for sure) the French troops were at fault. Perhaps their commanders put them in an impossible position. Perhaps there really were people in the crowd shooting at them. A whole lot of “perhapses.” > > Unless the UN and French will move ahead with a public investigation, the world will never know what really happened. And those responsible will not be identified or (I hope) punished. And there won’t be any lessons learned to prevent a tragedy like this from recurring all too soon. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/53 "2004-11-25T01:22:24Z")
I ran both videos repeatedly, and I have the following thoughts: One: The injuries shown on tape were real - The huge level of advance preparation necessary to fake that many wounds, that realistically (most _especially_ the victim with the crushed head), would have been obvious in the free-ranging video shots. Some people very close to camera were filmed before _and_ after the shooting, showing head wounds afterwards. That would’ve required makeup magic that even Hollywood would be hard-pressed to match, and certainly not in that short of a time-frame. Two: The crowd shown lying down were not all shot - Most were lying down to _avoid_ getting shot. Once the fire slacked off, they got up and moved away. Three: The crowd’s behavior was consistant with other crowd behaviors I’ve seen filmed under similar circumstances, especially in countries where violence and death are more common than they are in the West. Four: The breast shots were part of the scene, and not prurient in nature - many of the injured were shown either with their shirts raised or off, or in the process of being removed. It appears that the crowd was trying to treat (ineffectively) for shock. Five: The crowd did not appear to actually threaten the soldiers at any point. Nor did I see any signs of weapons. They were, however, loud, insulting, and generally (if passively) hostile. Six: Based upon the volume of fire, the troops must have either been remarkably bad shots, or they really _were_ using “less-lethal” ammunition. The wounds seen in the crowd were, for the most part, consistant with relatively low-energy projectiles. e.g. Head wounds that indicated projectiles had ricoched, torso wounds that produced only mildly disabling wounds, and so on. Full-power ammunition fired at that volume at a crowd that dense would have produced far more than just a relative handful of fatalities, given the number of wounds. Seven: This is fairly typical of what happens everywhere with depressing regularity when you put combat troops in police roles. That is especially true when you issue “less lethal” ammunition to those troops without giving them proper training on the doctrine of use for that ammunition. The average combat trooper doesn’t have as good as good a grasp on rules of engagement as police forces (MPs) would, and believes it when he reads ‘low lethality’ on the ammo crate - They often don’t realize that ‘less lethal’ != ‘non-lethal.’ Eight: The burning UN vehicle wasn’t very far involved - I’d guess that it was set afire either right before, or right after, the shooting. It might have been, with equal plausibility, the trigger for the shooting, or in response to the shooting. Conclusion: This was a predictable fuck-up, and France does itself no damn good by trying to deny it or sweep it under the rug. They’d do far better to acknowledge it and tell what steps they’re taking to prevent a recurrence. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/54 "2004-11-25T03:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Tranquilis said:_ > Six: Based upon the volume of fire, the troops must have either been remarkably bad shots, or they really were using “less-lethal” ammunition. Or they were mainly shooting over there heads, which is kind of how it looked to me. The soldiers were on a raised position, didn’t appear to be pointing down. As well, the protesters seem to jump up a little before the firing had stopped. Also I’m not sure it’s fair to say they were put in a “police role”. There’s been plenty of violence already and the soldiers are protecting a hub for extraditing foreign nationals. I am hard pressed to notice any provocation by the crowd in the video. On another note I got the impression that faces were purposely blurred at the 3:00 mark 1st video. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/55 "2004-11-25T14:01:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Or they were mainly shooting over there heads, which is kind of how it looked to me. The soldiers were on a raised position, didn’t appear to be pointing down. As well, the protesters seem to jump up a little before the firing had stopped. _Far_ too many wounds in the crowd for the soldiers to have been firing over heads. To have it otherwise would imply that the troops were such bad shots that they couldn’t hit the sky - Not plausible. Also, it seems to me that there was a pretty close match of wounds-to-shots, based solely upon my perceptions from the videos. > [@](#): > > Also I’m not sure it’s fair to say they were put in a “police role”. There’s been plenty of violence already and the soldiers are protecting a hub for extraditing foreign nationals. Crowd-control and security, against an unarmed and unthreatening demonstration? That’s a police role, not a proper job for line troops. Much more appropriate to have used Military Police for such work, if any were available. MPs are specifically trainied in how to handle such situations, while line trops only get cursory training at that kind of work, at best. Sadly, the line troops appear to have been the only force available. > [@](#): > > I am hard pressed to notice any provocation by the crowd in the video. On another note I got the impression that faces were purposely blurred at the 3:00 mark 1st video. Comments? I’m not sure there was one, but from the limited perspective of the cameras, I’m not at all convinced there wasn’t one, either. Hard to say, though I suspect that it was a case of troops out of their depth (called to do something for which they had little training) getting nervous and acting what training they _did_ have. i.e. when you feel threatened, shoot. That said, I’d have to say that the discipline of the French troops is pretty good - they stopped shooting fairly quickly, and didn’t start up again. Nor did the firing errupt into a general slaughter. Once a trigger is pulled, it’s sometimes quite hard to stop the shooting again, depending on the discipline of the troops involved. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/56 "2004-11-25T14:42:35Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > What were all those Irish folks doing there? I haven’t seen the video, what were they doing? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/57 "2004-11-25T22:17:53Z")
In the first video, I’m wondering if the wounds weren’t caused by bullets dropping from the sky. I too saw that lots of people appeared to be overcome by heat rather than wounded by bullets. As for the second, the crowd appeared to close on the soldiers and the soldiers opened fire before they got overwhelmed and then withdrew. Considering that the soldiers had tanks there, which did not fire, and the limited number of casualties - there could have been hundreds. I’d suggest that the French showed restraint in the circumstances but I’ll let those with actual military experience make proper judgements. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/58 "2004-11-26T02:28:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In the first video, I’m wondering if the wounds weren’t caused by bullets dropping from the sky. _Very_ unlikely - the placement, depth, and distribution of the wounds would have been quite different if it were from projectiles falling from the sky, especially if they were using ‘low lethality’ bullets. Restraint is a relative term, and the main reason you’d not use tanks to fire on the crowd is that tanks are grossly coarse tools for crowd control - You either waste a very expensive round killing a very few people, or, if you have the ability to fire cannister (most tanks do not have cannister ammunition for their main guns), you wind up killing _everyone_ in front of you. Two very poor choices. So, the lack of tank main-gun fire isn’t really an issue of restraint in either direction. They’re just the wrong weapon for the task. My opinion of the French troops is posted above. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/59 "2004-11-26T03:14:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _Tranquilis said:_ > Very unlikely - the placement, depth, and distribution of the wounds would have been quite different if it were from projectiles falling from the sky, especially if they were using ‘low lethality’ bullets. Well, if you say you are an emergency/combat triage medic, coroner or something I’ll take you at your word. However, from this layman’s eyes the clear round leg wound and what seemed to me shrapnel being taken out (both in first video) makes me think regular rounds. The wounds in the second video don’t make be think rubber bullets either: mostly heat stroke and deep gashes. The amputated foot and head _could_ be caused by a direct hit from a gas canister, but there’s no other evidence of gas use. My first guess would be being hit by a heavy vehicle. That’s my take anyway. Not that it changes moral culpability much, just how to prevent it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/60 "2004-11-26T14:03:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well, if you say you are an emergency/combat triage medic, coroner or something I’ll take you at your word. Not a combat medic, though I was part of the local volunteer ambulance corp when I was younger. What I have, instead, is a long familliarity with firearms, military experience, and a fair fascination with the work of wound ballistics research. In short, while I don’t treat such wounds myself, I’ve seen scores of them. I’ll agree that I heard nothing that would acount for the foot injury or the crushed head, and both resemble the kind of damage that a vehicle would cause. The kinds of less-lethal bullets that could be fired from the battle rifles the troops were using would quite handily cause neat round holes from a close-range direct shot, but would be highy unlikely to cause any serious wound if falling straight down - The sectional density of less-lethal bullets is sufficiently low that terminal velocity would too low to cause worse than minor bruising and pressure cuts. In order to cause serious injury with less-lethal bullets, they have to strike their victim fairly close to the muzzle. Within a few tens of meters, typically. Placement: _Far_ too many leg and torso hits for falling bullets, and far too many clean entries (as you correctly mention) for spent bullets. Lastly, distribution of the wounded: Most were close to the front of the crowd. Falling bullets would be scattered over an area _far, far_ more broad than the relatively localized crowd. The bullets would have been falling all over the city, not in the plaza. It takes serious care and near-perfect conditions to cause a bullet fired in the air to return to the ground with the kind of precision neccessary to produce the results video taped. It’s simply not credible that a number of soldiers could fire into the air and have that many bullets drop to the ground _directly_ into the crowd in front of their position. Nor is it credible that randomly falling bullets would create shuch a high proportion of wounds per the number of bullets fired. The fussilade was short, and no more than two or hree hundred bullets were fired, in total. Probably far less than that, actually. Reports were of 200 injuries. Even counting that 3/4 of the injuries were inflicted in the panic afterwards, that still means that as many as one in four, or at worst, one in six, bullets caused an injury. That rate of injury from falling bullets is simply _not_ credible. Not even remotely. No, the distribution of wounded clearly indicates a direct line from the firing soldiers to the victims. In short, based upon my knowledge and experience, it is **not credible** that these troops were firing into the air. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022.md?page=4)