# French troops make the "Fallujah Marine" incident look like a mercy killing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022 "2004-11-22T01:36:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/61 "2004-11-26T17:58:47Z")
Well fair enough. I agree that falling bullets would have wounded in other parts of the city unless they were shooting almost straight up with no wind. My thinking was that nobody’s perfect/a couple guys were fuckheads and a number of the shots simply went low or ricocheted badly, though the main intention was to fire high. I think you are “jumping the gun” (heh) on your conclusion based on the injuries in the videos but I assume there is no need to argue the point. I doubt the French would try to cover up using non-lethal weapons, so it ought to come out soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/62 "2004-11-26T19:06:14Z")
_shrug_ In the end, the ‘how’ matters not. What matters is the ‘why’ and ‘how to prevent recurrence.’ All else is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/63 "2004-11-27T08:55:45Z")
I don’t think that anyone can argue that in the second video the troops did not fire directly into the crowd - they clearly did - but in the first video I don’t think it’s so sure. There were _very_ few wounds shown - as opposed to after the shooting in the second video. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/64 "2004-11-27T13:22:54Z")
200+ meg of video and no clear picture of French troops firing? Suspect. > [@RedFury](#): > > …a UN sanctioned operation, least you forget… So was the Oil-for-Food program, and look how corrupt that turned out to be. UN approval shouldn’t be confused with a divine blessing or something. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/65 "2004-11-27T15:49:23Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > French actions in the Ivory Coast – a UN sanctioned operation, least you forget – and your own murderous Iraq invasion. Sanctioned ex post facto. How convenient. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/66 "2004-11-27T19:45:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Quartz said_ > I don’t think that anyone can argue that in the second video the troops did not fire directly into the crowd - they clearly did - but in the first video I don’t think it’s so sure. Not to be difficult, and certainly not to agree with **Brutus** ( 😉 ), but I didn’t see it. Can you give me the timestamp in the second video where you saw them shoot directly into the crowd or at least what has convinced you so? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/67 "2004-11-27T21:31:56Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Sanctioned ex post facto. How convenient. Why ex post-facto? The Ivorian president asked for french troops. Later, after the Marcoussi agreement was drafted, an UN resolution was passed. The recent events largely postdate the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/68 "2004-11-28T15:29:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Not to be difficult, and certainly not to agree with **Brutus** ( 😉 ), but I didn’t see it. Can you give me the timestamp in the second video where you saw them shoot directly into the crowd or at least what has convinced you so? I can’t give the timestamp precisely, and you’re right that it’s not directly shown, but there’s a point in the video which shows the crowds getting too close to the soldiers, and then the video goes haywire as the cameraman runs away to the sound of gunfire. I also note that the starting point of this sequence is closer to the troops than the end point. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/69 "2004-11-28T17:45:41Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Youre obviously looking for some sort of moral eqivalence between the French actions in the Ivory Coast – a UN sanctioned operation, least you forget – and your own murderous Iraq invasion. Oh, for cryin’ out loud. You’re obviously looking for bullshit to bitch about. Haven’t you ever heard the sort of construction used in the thread’s title? People use it all the time. So-and-so makes so-and-so look like so-and-so. If you could ever dislodge your knee from your teeth long enough to think, you’d stop being such a crybaby. You make ordinary hand-wringers look like Pontius Pilate. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/70 "2004-11-28T20:34:29Z")
The OP’s choice of comparison’s was ill-concieved if he really wanted pure discussion of the French incident. It risked turning this into yet another Iraq war discussion or a debate on the OP’s motives. Somehow it managed to get over that, so do you mind **Liberal** not dragging it back there just because this 6 day old hair got up your ass? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/71 "2004-11-28T22:06:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The OP’s choice of comparison’s was ill-concieved if he really wanted pure discussion of the French incident. It risked turning this into yet another Iraq war discussion or a debate on the OP’s motives. Somehow it managed to get over that, so do you mind **Liberal** not dragging it back there just because this 6 day old hair got up your ass? Yeah, okay, fair enough. I didn’t check the dates. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/72 "2004-11-28T23:52:02Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I haven’t seen the video, what were they doing? For some unknown reason, the protesters have selected the Irish flag as their rallying point. The crowd is awash with orange white and green. If it weren’t for the clearly african origin of the protesters, they could be mistaken for Dublin soccer hooligans. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/73 "2004-11-28T23:55:47Z")
Sheesh guys, it’s [**their**](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/flags/iv-flag.html) flag (though the mistake is easy to make). The mob/government are known as “patriots”. Thanks **Liberal** , though I addressed you I mainly commented to forestall **Redfury** responding in kind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/74 "2004-11-29T20:48:40Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Keep bleating, fucktard. Youre obviously looking for some sort of moral eqivalence between the French actions in the Ivory Coast – a UN sanctioned operation, least you forget – and your own murderous Iraq invasion. For what it’s worth, the current US actions in Iraq (Fallujah, etc) are legitimate in terms of being under the auspices of the UN and the nominal direction of the Iraqi government, such as it is. I still don’t get the OP’s reference to France forgiving Iraqi debt, though. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/75 "2004-11-29T20:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=TranquilisRestraint is a relative term, and the main reason you’d not use tanks to fire on the crowd is that tanks are grossly coarse tools for crowd control - You either waste a very expensive round killing a very few people, or, if you have the ability to fire cannister (most tanks do not have cannister ammunition for their main guns), you wind up killing _everyone_ in front of you. Two very poor choices. So, the lack of tank main-gun fire isn’t really an issue of restraint in either direction. They’re just the wrong weapon for the task. .[/QUOTE] Agree about it mainly being restraint, though I would imagine the tank also has some sort of subsidiary weaponry - machine gun(s) and/or autocannon. Plus some sort of HE hybrid shell for the main gun. Of course, as soon as the tank does any shooting at civilians it’s probably game over from a peace-keeping utility point of view. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/76 "2004-11-30T13:21:08Z")
I had no hidden agenda in my OP. This thread was intended to highlight the hypocrisy of French policy and question why such a story has essentially been omitted from mainstream media. Pitting the actual act seems obvious; I don’t pit things with which no one will disagree. Here’s some more on the story: [http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29703422.htm](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29703422.htm) > [@](#): > > French forces had previously said they fired warning shots during the unrest, but Alliot-Marie told France’s RTL television on Sunday night the troops had most probably “made full use of their weapons” in some cases. > > The mob violence erupted after government forces killed nine French soldiers and an American aid worker in a bombing raid on the rebel-held north, prompting the former colonial power to destroy most of Ivory Coast’s small air force in retaliation. > > The Ivorian government has repeatedly accused French forces of firing on crowds of unarmed demonstrators, particularly at the Hotel Ivoire in the main city, Abidjan. Paris has insisted the protesters were often armed with guns and machetes. > > Alliot-Marie said the French troops sometimes had no choice but to open fire, particularly when they were returning from other parts of the country to protect French and other foreign nationals from attack in Abidjan. > > “When they tried to stop our armoured vehicles from getting to Abidjan, to stop them from protecting our citizens and other foreigners who were victims of the violence, they had to fire,” she said. > > “Naturally, they fired warning shots and in some cases, most probably, they had to make full use of their firearms. That is the reality. There was nothing else that could be done.” > [@clairobscur](#): > > Why ex post-facto? The Ivorian president asked for french troops. Later, after the Marcoussi agreement was drafted, an UN resolution was passed. The recent events largely postdate the agreement. > [@](#): > > Under traditional international law, peacekeeping forces are supposed to be impartial, lightly armed, not to use force except in self-defense and function with the consent of the host state. From this background, the French bombing of the Ivorian air force would be illegal and in breach of Article 2(4) of the U.N. Charter prohibiting states to attack one another unless in self-defense. France was also obligated to adhere to the principles of impartiality and proportionality and prevailing U.N. Charter law prohibitions on uses of force. Notwithstanding, the traditional law of peacekeeping is blurred when states undertake U.N.-authorized enforcement actions. Nonetheless, France’s enforcement power is limited to the operational mandate of the UNOCI, which does not permit reprisals for negligent bombing or the breaching of the cease-fire agreement. Reprisals of this sort are not permitted under international law or by any of the agreements/resolutions controlling this conflict. Because France was operating under a U.N. mandate, it should have formally complained about the bombing to the U.N. before acting as judge and executioner. > [@](#): > > Last week, the U.N. Security Council adopted a French-sponsored Resolution 1572, which condemned the Ivorian air strikes and fully supported the retaliatory actions of French forces. The resolution demands that Ivorian authorities cease all radio and television broadcasts inciting hatred, intolerance and violence and, most important, levies an arms embargo on the country. It also promises targeted economic and travel sanctions on anyone who threatens peace and national reconciliation processes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/77 "2004-11-30T16:51:33Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > For what it’s worth, the current US actions in Iraq (Fallujah, etc) are legitimate in terms of being under the auspices of the UN and the nominal direction of the Iraqi government, such as it is. Sure, because we all know just how concerned the current US Governement is with [**what the UN has to say about the Iraq invasion**](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm). As for the ‘actions in Fallujah’ hey, good thing the [\*\*US is the only country in the world](http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14920109&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=fallujah-napalmed-name_page.html)\*\* that refused to ratify the UN treaty banning the use of napalm: > [@](#): > > \*\*US troops are secretly using outlawed napalm gas to wipe out remaining insurgents in and around Fallujah. > > News that President George W. Bush has sanctioned the use of napalm, a deadly cocktail of polystyrene and jet fuel banned by the United Nations in 1980, will stun governments around the world. > > And last night Tony Blair was dragged into the row as furious Labour MPs demanded he face the Commons over it. Reports claim that innocent civilians have died in napalm attacks, which turn victims into human fireballs as the gel bonds flames to flesh. > > Outraged critics have also demanded that Mr Blair threatens to withdraw British troops from Iraq unless the US abandons one of the world’s most reviled weapons. Halifax Labour MP Alice Mahon said: “I am calling on Mr Blair to make an emergency statement to the Commons to explain why this is happening. It begs the question: ‘Did we know about this hideous weapon’s use in Iraq?’” > > Since the American assault on Fallujah there have been reports of “melted” corpses, which appeared to have napalm injuries. > > Last August the US was forced to admit using the gas in Iraq. > > A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians - after pictures of a naked girl victim fleeing in Vietnam shocked the world. > > America, which didn’t ratify the treaty, is the only country in the world still using the weapon. \*\* Bushland – morally superior by virtue of doing whatever the fuck it wants. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/78 "2004-11-30T16:54:27Z")
**KidCharlemagne** , could you say what is exactly hypocritical here? Have the French declared an oath to pacifisicm? What policy are they ignoring? I guess by bringing up Fallujah marine you wanted to highlight France’s condemnation of the US for the shooting-- do you have a link? Also from you link, but not seen in the video: > [@](#): > > “Faced with a crowd which was, after all – this has not been said enough – well-armed with Kalashnikovs (automatic rifles) and pistols and not just machetes, they showed composure and restraint,” she[french spokeswoman] said. Where are your second and third quote blocks from BTW? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/79 "2004-11-30T18:13:41Z")
**RedFury** , I know you are kinda just responding but do you mind posting about US war atrocities in a thread about US war atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022/80 "2004-11-30T19:35:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > **RedFury** , I know you are kinda just responding but do you mind posting about US war atrocities in a thread about US war atrocities. Fair enough. But I again would like to point out that despite **Liberal’s** usual protestations and cheap shots, it wasn’t me, but the OP that went looking for moral equivalency between French and American actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/french-troops-make-the-fallujah-marine-incident-look-like-a-mercy-killing/276022.md?page=3)