# Frere Jaques and other names in French **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 7, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323 "2010-10-07T02:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Looey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee7513/32.png) [@Looey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Looey)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/1 "2010-10-07T02:22:26Z")
My son asked me the simplest question tonight, and I realized that all these years I thought I knew the answer, but I don’t. He asked if Jaques is John in French, and I said “No, it’s Jean.” Then he asks “Then why is Frere Jaques sung Brother John?” Ummm… I don’t have a clue. I always thought Jean = John and Jaques = Jack. Why did it never occur to me to question this? So I try to find an online translator to tell me, but names don’t seem to translate. So I look up Frere Jaques on Wiki, and it says the literal translation is… get this… Brother James. James?!? What new hell is this? Jean, Jaques,John, Jack, James, blibbber, bluubbber, blubbbub… send me to the rubber room! Can someone tell me how these names translate between French and English?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/2 "2010-10-07T03:07:30Z")
Well, Jack is a nickname for John (JFK was called “Jack Kennedy” for example), so I suspect that although James is the literal translation of Jaques, the translator associated Jaques with the similar-sounding Jack, and shifted to the equivalent John to make the rhyme closer (John/Dong) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/3 "2010-10-07T03:08:44Z")
_Jacques_ is from the Latin _Jacobus_, which is ultimately from the Hebrew _Jacob_. According to Wikipedia there was a late Latin variant _Jacomus_, which found its way into English as _James_. So, yes, _Jacques_ is the French equivalent of the English _James_ and St. James, for example, is _Saint Jacques_. The English _Jack_ is a diminutive of _John_. It comes from the Germanic name _Jan_ (itself a contraction of _Johann_), plus the suffix _-kin_, which gives us _Jankin_, which gets further simplified to _Jack_. The German _Johann_ and the French _Jean_ both come from the Latin _Ioannes_, which in turn comes from the Hebrew _Yohanan_. Why do people sing “Brother John”? I was never aware until today that they did. When I was a child, we sang this song only in French. I am unfamiliar with the lyric in English. Does “John” provide a rhyme or an assonance which would be lost if “James” were used? [On seening **Andy L** ’s post, the answer to that last question is “yes”.] ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/4 "2010-10-07T04:48:59Z")
There’s no reason we can’t give the lyrics: Traditional translation: Are you sleeping, Brother John? Morning bells are ringing Ding ding dong. Literal translation: Brother James Sleep you? [i.e. Do you sleep?] Ring the morning-prayers. [implying the bells that announce them] Ding ding dong. If you want more translations (including in other languages), try this [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translations_of_Fr%C3%A8re_Jacques). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/5 "2010-10-07T05:41:30Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > _Jacques_ is from the Latin _Jacobus_, which is ultimately from the Hebrew _Jacob_. And the [Jacobean era](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobean_era) refers to the reign of King James I of England; also, the [Jacobites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobitism) were the supporters of King James II after he was deposed (and later of the restoration of his line). ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/6 "2010-10-07T07:46:00Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Well, Jack is a nickname for John . . . Tiny nitpick: Jack isn’t always a nickname; my father’s name (on his birth certificate) was Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/7 "2010-10-07T07:56:35Z")
The translator was VERY loose with the translation, so I wouldn’t assume Jacques to John was a ‘Jacques/Jack’ mistake - not only is the monk’s name changed, but so is why he’s being told to get up. In Frere Jacques, he’s being told to wake up and ring the bell. In Brother John, he’s being told to wake up because the bells are ringing. So James and John could be two different lazy monks…so the abbot goes to rouse James and make him ring the bells, then goes to wake John because he’s not getting up for morning prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/8 "2010-10-07T15:37:08Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > _Jacques_ is from the Latin _Jacobus_, which is ultimately from the Hebrew _Jacob_. According to Wikipedia there was a late Latin variant _Jacomus_, which found its way into English as _James_. So, yes, _Jacques_ is the French equivalent of the English _James_ and St. James, for example, is _Saint Jacques_. > > The English _Jack_ is a diminutive of _John_. It comes from the Germanic name _Jan_ (itself a contraction of _Johann_), plus the suffix _-kin_, which gives us _Jankin_, which gets further simplified to _Jack_. The German _Johann_ and the French _Jean_ both come from the Latin _Ioannes_, which in turn comes from the Hebrew _Yohanan_. > > Why do people sing “Brother John”? I was never aware until today that they did. When I was a child, we sang this song only in French. I am unfamiliar with the lyric in English. Does “John” provide a rhyme or an assonance which would be lost if “James” were used? > > [On seening **Andy L** ’s post, the answer to that last question is “yes”.] Not sure where this fits in to your very informative analysis, but in the German version it’s Jakob (which I assume would also come from the Hebrew _Jacob_, yes?) ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/9 "2010-10-07T15:41:03Z")
Yes it does. And it’s Jakob in the Swedish version as well. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/10 "2010-10-07T15:49:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Literal translation: > > Brother James > Sleep you? [i.e. Do you sleep?] > Ring the morning-prayers. [implying the bells that announce them] > Ding ding dong. That’s a _very_ literal translation. Rendering “Dormez vous” as “Sleep you” (or even “Do you sleep”) is a word-for-word substitution rather than a translation; the corresponding English that anyone would actually say is “Are you sleeping.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/11 "2010-10-07T15:55:22Z")
I think the substitution is just because John is a more common name than James in English (though both are fairly common). I think, though, that in French Jacques might be more common than Jean. ---
**Author:** ![Looey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee7513/32.png) [@Looey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Looey)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/12 "2010-10-07T18:38:58Z")
Thanks guys! I can sleep at night now. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/13 "2010-10-07T19:00:17Z")
> [@Looey](#): > > Thanks guys! I can sleep at night now. Doper Looey Doper Looey Dormez-vous? Dormez-vous? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/14 "2010-10-07T19:05:47Z")
It was almost certainly done for poetic reasons. Note that the first two lines are reversed. French version starts with Brother Jacques then asks the question, the English version asks the question, then addresses Brother John. That was likely done to maintain the rhythym and meter of the music. Similarly, John “rhymes” better with “dong” than Jack or James. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/15 "2010-10-07T19:10:24Z")
> [@Looey](#): > > Thanks guys! I can sleep at night now. Not so fast, **Looey**. Sometimes names are more cultural concepts than words. How do you translate “John Doe,” or “Uncle Sam”? Or what about “Main Street”? The point isn’t always to find a one-to-one correspondence between languages, and this is really what you should be trying to teach your son. When he asks you that question, you can answer this: “Here we say ‘Brother John.’ In France they say ‘Frère Jacques.’” While the name in the song might have been based on an actual person (Jacques Beaulieu), it more or less has become the stereotypical name for a monk in France. In English it’s “Brother John”–kind of how we say “Joe Six-pack,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/16 "2010-10-07T19:28:02Z")
Even more surprising: I’ve been told that the Spanish version of Jacques/James/Jacob/Jakob is Diego. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/17 "2010-10-07T19:58:47Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Sometimes names are more cultural concepts than words. How do you translate “John Doe,” or “Uncle Sam”? Or what about “Main Street”? Just for fun: “Monsieur Dupont” (there’s some variation in this, but that’s one I’ve come across pretty often) “Oncle Sam” “Rue Principale” (though if the street is really called Main, you’d see “Rue Main”) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/18 "2010-10-07T20:17:13Z")
Main Street is tricky, because we usually don’t have those - most cities in the Old World weren’t planned from the get go, so which street became the main one is more organic 🙂 However, I’d wager that even the smallest, most godforsaken hamlet in France has either a “Rue de la République”, a “Rue Charles de Gaulle” or a “Rue du 8 Mai '45”. Or all three. Those would be the street names I’d use if I were translating a text where “Main Street” has a definite thematic/symbolic value (otherwise I’d probably just leave it as Main Street for flavour). (For reference, I went to the “Ecole de la République” school on “Charles de Gaulle Avenue” myself 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/19 "2010-10-07T22:23:18Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > “Monsieur Dupont” (there’s some variation in this, but that’s one I’ve come across pretty often) It’s certainly the default name for a person from France, but I don’t know if it’s ever used as a legal term the way “John Doe” is. > [@](#): > > “Rue Principale” (though if the street is really called Main, you’d see “Rue Main”) I’d say that if there are street names you’re likely to find in almost all Quebec cities, it’d be “rue Principale”, “rue Notre-Dame”, and possibly “boulevard Saint-Laurent” and “rue Jacques-Cartier” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323/20 "2010-10-07T22:24:04Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Even more surprising: I’ve been told that the Spanish version of Jacques/James/Jacob/Jakob is Diego. Iacomus-Iacomo-Iaco-Iago-Tiago-Diego. And with the English, there’s an intermediate form from Jacobus to the medieval French “Gemmes” to James. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frere-jaques-and-other-names-in-french/556323.md?page=2)