# Fresh Garbage: The Spirit of the Law
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [October 23, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592 "2006-10-23T17:12:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/1 "2006-10-23T17:12:57Z")
Forgive me if I shamelessly recycle old news but some of the shit described hereunder has but recently come to my attention.
_**Item (1)**_ [Many councils ‘bug’ rubbish bins](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5404730.stm).
Indeed they do.
> [@](#):
>
> More than 30 councils are fitting microchips to wheelie bins ahead of possible “pay as you throw” schemes. It is the latest attempt to encourage more recycling to curb the amount of rubbish that ends up in landfill. Household rubbish would be weighed to within 500 grams on collection trucks and the chips used to identify which property the bin belongs to. Councils are expecting to get the go-ahead from the government to start using the chips to charge residents.
Well something has to be done. The UK has enough landfill space to ccommodate only 9 years waste. It is number 3 (with a bullet) in the charts for the most abject recycling results in the European Union. In addition there are EU targets to be met (by 2010) which demand that 40% of total waste is to be recycled by that time under severe threat of a hefty fine. What is more, I am a big fan of recycling. So this is a fine idea isn’t it?
No it isn’t.
The murky origins of household refuse can only be traced back to the address outside which the bin is placed for emptying. If I have rubbish outside my house then it’s my rubbish. It’s nobody else’s rubbish. It’s mine. I _own_ that rubbish.
Of course, somebody may come along in my absence, or in my sleep, and deposit his trash in my bin, in which case my rubbish collection increases accordingly and I’ve now got to pay for the disposal of a third party’s rubbish as well as my own.
Furthermore the third party may well decide, if my bin is full already, to practice the noble art of fly-tipping and just dump his waste in the nearest layby, or on some roadside verge, or in the middle of the fucking road, who cares, it’s not his problem any more. And this tactic has an attractive cost free element attached to it as well, so the economics of the fly-tip are as sound as a bell.
For some reason I don’t believe this is going to fly.
It’s also worth noting that if a council insists on planting microchips in waste bins prior to implementation of a system which isn’t going to work, I think the owners of said bins should be politely informed what is occurring. Otherwise people are going to think the council wishes to hide something.
Perish the fucking thought.
_**Item (2)**_ [Fine for letter in recycling bag](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/6058952.stm)
This piece reveals a wealth of detail concerning the contradictory requirements of the complex recycling phenomenon:
> [@](#):
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> Magistrates have fined a man £200 after finding him guilty of putting paper in a recycling sack for bottles and cans only - breaking council rules. Michael Reeves, 28, a journalist from Swansea, had denied putting an item of junk mail in the bag. The court was told the letter, which was addressed to him, “contaminated” the other items put out for recycling.
>
> After the hearing Mr Reeves said he had since stopped recycling and feared his case would discourage others. Magistrates in the city were told under the Environmental Protection Act, councils could impose strict rules on their refuse collection services. Mr Reeves was served with a warning notice in April this year when he put his bins out a day early because he was going on holiday.
>
> Then in June a green recycling bag was found outside his ground floor flat in the Mount Pleasant area of the city containing both paper and bottles and cans. Swansea Council enforcement officer Martin Lemon said: “There is a recycling scheme available in which paper can put into a green recycling sack and glass bottles and tins can be put into a separate sack.”
>
> He said if the items were mixed in the same bag then it would be sent to landfill instead as the council’s recycling collection team refused to pick it up. “The fly-tipping team have responsibility for collecting waste that has been incorrectly disposed of,” he said. "The teams are trained to search through any offending waste that they have found to look for evidence of its origins. “My colleague informed me that he had opened a green recycling sack and that he found a piece of junk mail with Mr Reeve’s name and address.”
>
> The sports writer with the city’s Evening Post newspaper denied putting the letter in the bag. The court heard there were no eye witnesses or camera footage of him doing so. His solicitor Nicola Smith said there was “an array” of possibilities of how it came to be in the sack. But magistrates found him guilty and fined him £100 and ordered him to pay £100 costs. Speaking after Tuesday’s hearing he described the case as “crazy”.
>
> “I don’t believe they proved beyond reasonable doubt that I put the paper in the bag - I did not,” he said. He added: “I have not recycled since I received the summons”. “People are not going to recycle if they end up in court and it costs them £200.”
Excellent news. The council coffers groan under the weight of yet another £100, which presumably enables them to spend even more financial resources on team training. This process will hone the collective team searching skills to the highest levels, and will allow them to “search through any offending waste that they have found to look for evidence of its origins” with devastating and forensic efficiency.
The only downside I can see with the council business plan is that for a single piece of paper found in the wrong bag, the whole bag goes to a landfill site in direct conflict with ‘the latest attempt to encourage more recycling to curb the amount of rubbish that ends up in landfill’ strategy described in Item (1).
_**Item (3)**_ [comparison - tough punishments for non-driving offences](http://www.brake.org.uk/index.php?p=903)
Turning our flagging attention to the grave matter of litter disposal, I give you:
> [@](#):
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> A woman was fined £75 for throwing a crisp out of her car window. Hilary Buckland, 46, of Orchard Way, Luton, threw a Cheesy Wotsit into the road and was spotted by an official from Luton Borough Council who thought it was a cigarette butt. She was told that it was the council’s policy to issue fines for littering and it made no difference whether she had thrown a crisp or a cigarette butt. Mrs Buckland said one of the children in her car threw the Wotsit into her lap while she was driving and she then threw the crisp out of the car window.
Bloody kids.
I’ve got some sympathy with the council here. A Cheesy Wotsit is the most potentially dangerous snack known to mankind. Collectively they deface our road surfaces from Lands End to John o’Groats, and it is rumoured that one day last week the M40 between Swindon and Cardiff actually turned orange (Westbound carriageway only. Eastbound traffic was unaffected).
Anyway, I’ve really only included this for a later comparison.
_**Item (4)**_ From the same site:
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> A teenage girl was fined £75 for leaving an ice lolly stick on a wall in Manchester City Centre. Sorrell Walsh, 16, had just eaten a 95p Twister when she spotted a friend and ran over to greet her. A council warden saw that she had left the wooden stick on the wall and confronted her. The teenager burst into tears and offered to put it in the bin, but the warden still fined her. The ticket warned the GSCE student from Stalybridge that failure to pay could see her issued with a court summons and fined up to £2,000. Manchester City Council said she could appeal.
I withdraw my earlier accolade to the Cheesy Wotsit and instead award the victor’s laurels to the 95p Twister.
From memory, this girl ate her lollipop and put the stick on the wall intending to take it with her when she moved on. She forgot to take it with her when she saw her friend. The rest is self explanatory.
_**Item (5)**_ [Man fined over cigarette ash](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1962281.html)
> [@](#):
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> A driver has been handed a £75 fine for flicking his cigarette ash out of his car window. Alan Joyce, from Poole, Dorset, was sent a fixed penalty notice telling him to pay the fine within 14 days or face court action.
>
> He was told that a council officer had reason to believe he was “dripping his cigarette” while driving his car.
>
> Mr Joyce, 68, who plans to pay the fine but lodge a complaint, said: “To me that is not worth being branded a litter bug. I am really annoyed. I can’t remember doing it so I can’t deny it. But it is annoying when you see other things like the chewing gum on the streets and the litter left in my garden.”
>
> According to the Mirror Poole councillor Don Collier said: “Poole operates a vigilant fixed penalty notice scheme to discover people who are littering our town. The people of Poole won’t tolerate littering.”
Give me a fucking break.
_**Item (6)**_ No cite. A few months ago a man left his house and walked along the street, stopping at a public litter bin. He felt in his pocket and found a piece of junk mail (or something similar) which he placed in the public litter bin. A council employee (or something similar) saw him do this. He was fined for the outrageous crime of putting personal litter in a public litter bin.
_**Item (7)**_ [Mug gers and thieves to be fined £100 on the spot](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2380432,00.html)
> [@](#):
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> Serious crimes such as assaulting a police officer and mugging will be punished by instant fines of up to £100 from next year under plans to keep hundreds of thousands of offenders out of court.
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> Proposals drawn up by the Home Office, and seen by The Times, envisage a huge extension of fixed-penalty notices from early 2007. They would apply to nearly 30 offences, including assault, threatening behaviour, all types of theft up to a value of £100, obstructing or assaulting a police officer, possession of cannabis, and drunkenness.
What a superb idea.
I’m walking down the street trying manfully to avoid being threatened or assaulted when I notice a mugger waiting in a dark alley. I know he’s a mugger because I can see him furiously tapping the keys of his laptop, user manual in hand, running a spreadsheet program to work out his projected revenue when robbing me. He sidles up accompanied by a fearsome looking knife and, instead of demanding £100, he insists somewhat apologetically that I give him £200, this somewhat exorbitant sum to be apportioned in the ratio 50% for himself and 50% as a contingency fee in case he is apprehended by the police.
This is nothing less than daylight robbery.
If he is not so apprehended one assumes that he places £100 in a reserve account to budget for unexpected fixed penalties which may arise during the next financial quarter. Helping people exceed their budgeted targets can be such a rewarding experience and I am proud to be a mover and shaker in the cuthroat world of commercial mugging.
_**Item (8)**_ Management Summary
**(a)** Mr. Reeves (Item 2) is given a ‘warning’ by his council for putting out his bins a day early because he intends to go on holiday. He is later fined £200 _and gets a criminal record_ for allowing 1 piece of paper to ‘contaminate’ a collection of bottles and cans. I don’t really care whether he was responsible for this unspeakable crime or not. (What goes through the mind of a council worker “trained to search through any offending waste that they have found to look for evidence of its origins” which compels him to report this heinous offence to his line manager instead of transferring the piece of paper to another fucking bag is completely beyond my ability to comprehend.)
Under Item 7 the plan is to fine people who assault police officers with a fixed penalty of £100. Instant fines such as this will not result in a criminal record.
**(b)** The woman with the Cheesy Wotsit is fined £75 for chucking one of these highly recommended snacks out of her car window.
Under Item 7 the plan is to fine people who mug other people with a fixed penalty of £100. Instant fines such as this will not result in a criminal record.
**(c)** The girl with the lolly stick is fined £75 for leaving it on a wall. Whatever happened to the practice of accepting an apology and letting people go about their business is yet another mystery to me. I’m totally intolerant of the zero tolerance policy employed in this case. The council warden responsible for this piece of justice needs a long appointment with a psychotic dentist and, as luck would have it, I can heartily endorse the proficiency of my own practitioner in this regard.
Under Item 7 the plan is to fine people who assault other people with a fixed penalty of £100. Instant fines such as this will not result in a criminal record.
**(d)** The man with the cigarette ash is fined £75 for flicking it out of his car window. I do this. I always check there is nothing behind me before so doing. I always extinguish my cigarette in the car ashtray. Cigarette ash is biodegradable.
At the risk of repeating myself, under Item 7 the plan is to fine people who assault police officers with a fixed penalty of £100. Instant fines such as this will not result in a criminal record.
**(e)** Regarding Item 6, what on earth is wrong with placing litter in a litter bin? The other incidents are crazy but this takes the biscuit.
As a reminder, under Item 7 the plan is to fine people who assault police officers with a fixed penalty of £100. Instant fines such as this will not result in a criminal record.
**(f)** There seems to be a number of people in this country who have totally lost their perspective. Happily, I have a one point plan to turn the whole situation round and once more permit order to prevail over a world of chaos. For the Home Office, all the way down the line to local councils, refuse collectors and recycling employees I have but one simple message:
**(g)** Get a fucking grip.
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### Author:  [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)
#### Post date: [October 23, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/2 "2006-10-23T18:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara]
**(a)** Mr. Reeves (Item 2) is given a ‘warning’ by his council for putting out his bins a day early because he intends to go on holiday. He is later fined £200 _and gets a criminal record_ for allowing 1 piece of paper to ‘contaminate’ a collection of bottles and cans. I don’t really care whether he was responsible for this unspeakable crime or not. (What goes through the mind of a council worker “trained to search through any offending waste that they have found to look for evidence of its origins” which compels him to report this heinous offence to his line manager instead of transferring the piece of paper to another fucking bag is completely beyond my ability to comprehend.)
[/QUOTE]
Something similar to this happened to a guy [here in America](http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml). He had to go to court and sit on a bench and then he was drafted but he couldn’t be drafted because he’d littered. It was a big mess…
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/3 "2006-10-24T05:07:22Z")
At least your trash still belongs to _you_ when you put it out. I think that it most of the States, once it is put out on the street, anyone can go through it including detectives, thugs, and the police. They can get your DNA and your credit card numbers if you are not careful.
Obviously, you feel very passionate about this, but I just have to say that only one country in the world would have a snack called a “Cheesy Wotsit.” Do you all sound like something straight out of _Monty Python_?
And are you really _serious_ about these spying chips?
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/4 "2006-10-24T12:52:12Z")
I agree that something must be done to deal with the problem of waste. This ain’t it. I’m _already paying_ for waste disposal services. I’m not going to pay twice.
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### Author:  [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/5 "2006-10-24T14:10:42Z")
Here in Fort Worth, Texas, we pay depending on the size of the waste disposal bin we want. Everyone gets a recycle bin (it’s a large one), and you can choose one of three (I think it’s three) different size trash bins. In theory, someone who only wants to pay for a small bin could carry their trash down the street and dump it in someone else’s larger bin, but at least if they do that you won’t have to pay extra.
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/6 "2006-10-24T14:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=DeadlyAccurate]
In theory, someone who only wants to pay for a small bin could carry their trash down the street and dump it in someone else’s larger bin, but at least if they do that you won’t have to pay extra.
[/QUOTE]
That’s a problem with pay-as-you-throw measures: you’ll get charged not only for what you put in the bin, but also for what a sneaky neighbour puts in the bin.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/7 "2006-10-24T16:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=DeadlyAccurate]
Here in Fort Worth, Texas, we pay depending on the size of the waste disposal bin we want. Everyone gets a recycle bin (it’s a large one), and you can choose one of three (I think it’s three) different size trash bins
[/QUOTE]
That’s fucking brilliant. I’m writing to my councillor with that idea.
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### Author:  [@M.Meursault](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/M.Meursault)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/8 "2006-10-24T17:55:29Z")
Here in Bloomington, they have trash stickers, at $2 per. You put the sticker on your bin (up to 35 gallons in size, I think), they’ll pick it up. If you have more trash bags than can fit in the bin, or if you don’t have a bin, a sticker goes on each bag. At least, I think that’s how it works following my trial and error process. I thought you bought a sticker and put it on the bin like a permit with no need to buy more. That is apparently wrong; they refused to pick up my trash.
Recycling is also required, but they won’t really go through your trash bags to ensure you recycled. I know this, as they refused to pick up my recycling (because cigarette packs are non-recylcable) and I just tossed everything into the bin.
As of now, we only put trash out every two to three weeks. We don’t generate enough waste to warrant throwing $2 away each week. And if they want to charge us per bin pick-up, we’re going to make sure we get our money’s worth and fill that bastard up.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/9 "2006-10-24T18:18:00Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara]
Of course, somebody may come along in my absence, or in my sleep, and deposit his trash in my bin, in which case my rubbish collection increases accordingly and I’ve now got to pay for the disposal of a third party’s rubbish as well as my own.
The man with the cigarette ash is fined £75 for flicking it out of his car window. I do this. I always check there is nothing behind me before so doing. I always extinguish my cigarette in the car ashtray. Cigarette ash is biodegradable.
[/QUOTE]
This happens all the time for my dumpster. In fact, on “dumpster night” dudes go cruising, looking to: 1. dump their crap, sometimes illegal to dump crap. 2. “Dumpster dive” for furniture and other junk being tossed (which is fine by me if they don’t make noise or a mess), or 3. Steal the aluminum cans in the recycle bin.
I am sorry, but \*every fucking time \* I see a “ash flickerer” the ash flicking is always accompanied by “butt tossing” which is nasty and dangerous. Too many acres of forest have gone up in flames due to some asshole who can’t deign to dirty his ashtray. I want fines of thousands of dollars for this, and rigorous enforcement by cameras. :mad:
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### Author:  [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/10 "2006-10-24T22:35:52Z")
The solution to this is so simple I’m surprised that you don’t see it. Just define drunks, knives, and various instruments of bludgeonry as “rubbish” in the law, and we can impose serious penalties on those muggers.
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### Author:  [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/11 "2006-10-24T22:44:26Z")
> [@](#):
>
> And are you really serious about these spying chips?
Yes, it was big news a few months back.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/12 "2006-10-25T07:02:27Z")
**Zoe** , a Cheesy Wotsit is what you’d call a Cheez Doodle.
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### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2006, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/13 "2006-10-25T09:12:48Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
I am sorry, but \*every fucking time \* I see a “ash flickerer” the ash flicking is always accompanied by “butt tossing” which is nasty and dangerous. Too many acres of forest have gone up in flames due to some asshole who can’t deign to dirty his ashtray. I want fines of thousands of dollars for this, and rigorous enforcement by cameras. :mad:
[/QUOTE]
The OP records an incident in which a man was fined £75 for flicking cigarette ash out of his car window.
It says nothing about discarding cigarette butts via the same route. You may assume that ash is always followed by a butt. This is not true. Not in my case anyway, or in the case of people I know. However, anyone who does discard a butt in this way should be subject to a penalty.
The OP does not concern itself with the fine for flicking ash, in isolation. Or littering with lollipop sticks, in isolation. Or the Cheesy Wotsit, in isolation. Or any other crime, in isolation.
It attempts to point out the lack of equitableness in existing penalties for litter and recycling offences with the proposed fixed penalties for assault and muggings. The differences do not appear, in my opinion, to reflect any known form of justice.
As a digression, if you do advocate fines of thousands of dollars for butt tossing, you need to make sure that this penalty fits into a proper scale of justice. You need somewhere to go with crimes which are (arguably) more serious.
It’s a matter of balance.
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### Author:  [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2006, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fresh-garbage-the-spirit-of-the-law/377592/14 "2006-10-25T09:16:26Z")
[QUOTE=DeadlyAccurate]
Here in Fort Worth, Texas, we pay depending on the size of the waste disposal bin we want. Everyone gets a recycle bin (it’s a large one), and you can choose one of three (I think it’s three) different size trash bins. In theory, someone who only wants to pay for a small bin could carry their trash down the street and dump it in someone else’s larger bin, but at least if they do that you won’t have to pay extra.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting.
Someone has obviously given this matter some thought. Do you have problems in the Fort Worth area with fly-tipping?