# Fricatives as vowels **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 5, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219 "2008-03-05T19:08:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/1 "2008-03-05T19:08:48Z")
Are there any languages in which there are fricatives which can function as vowels? So like, this might be a syllable: ks -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/2 "2008-03-05T19:15:13Z")
Not a real language, but in **Tarzan Alive!** , Philip Jose Farmer has the “Apes\*” that raised Tarzan using a “glottal stop” (not a fricative, I know) as the vowel represented by “a” in “Tarzan”. Doesn’t answer your question at all, but interesting. \*In Farmer’s fictional bio of Tarzan, he’s raised by the last of a tribe of now-extinct pithecanthropi, or something, who are able to stimulate his brain centers for language, since they have one of their own, unlike gorillas. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/3 "2008-03-05T19:19:59Z")
English (“Sh…”, said the librarian). Yeah, I know, not what you’re looking for… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/4 "2008-03-05T19:28:43Z")
I don’t understand the question. There are several English words, at least in my Californian English, that have fricatives as vowels. Well, technically they’d be syllabic fricatives, but I think that’s as close as you can get in any language ([Wikipedia on syllabic consonants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant)). When I say “houses” it comes out “howz-zz.” Two syllables, two vowels. I’ve never been phonetically studied, so I can’t refute the hordes of people who will come in and tell me I’m really saying a schwa or some such, but I really don’t think there’s any vowel, even a reduced one, besides the fricative. Historically that was not the case, whence our spelling system (and I do hear many people prounouncing the word “howss-uz”). The notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t match up with the spoken language. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/5 "2008-03-05T19:51:58Z")
Well, if you take vowels to be solely defined by syllabicity, then I suppose there would be a problem. But I think many take vowels to also require, as Wikipedia puts it, “an open configuration of the vocal tract”, so that there can be syllabic sounds which are not vowels, as has been amply demonstrated. Of course, the notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t work at all, because those (in the context of this belief) are simply letters and not sounds; the number of English vowel sounds is significantly greater (though, of course, it would vary from accent to accent). As for your pronunciation of “houses”, the way you describe it, it sounds maybe like mine, but what would you say differentiates “howz-zz” from simple one-syllable “howzzz…”? I broadly think of my pronunciation as having a “schwi” in the second syllable, though mine may not actually be like yours. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/6 "2008-03-05T19:53:25Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] When I say “houses” it comes out “howz-zz.” Two syllables, two vowels. I’ve never been phonetically studied, so I can’t refute the hordes of people who will come in and tell me I’m really saying a schwa or some such, but I really don’t think there’s any vowel, even a reduced one, besides the fricative. Historically that was not the case, whence our spelling system (and I do hear many people prounouncing the word “howss-uz”). The notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t match up with the spoken language. [/QUOTE] There is another phoneme there. It’s called a glottal stop. Your glottis closes to separate the first _z_ from the second. I would have to hear you say the word to asses whether a vowel sound follows the glottal stop for you, but it does for everyone I’ve ever heard, and tends towards the short _i_ sound or the short _e_ sound, not the _schwa_, though. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/7 "2008-03-05T19:54:34Z")
Incidentally, to the OP, **Dr. Drake** ’s Wikipedia link points out that syllabic fricatives occur in Mandarin and standard Liangshan Yi. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/8 "2008-03-05T19:56:07Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] There is a vowel there. It’s called a glottal stop. Your glottis closes to separate the first _z_ from the second. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t call a glottal stop a vowel; there’s a clear constriction. I don’t think it’s characterized as a fricative either; rather, a plosive (like ‘b’, ‘p’, ‘k’, ‘g’, ‘d’, ‘t’). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/9 "2008-03-05T19:59:34Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] I don’t understand the question. There are several English words, at least in my Californian English, that have fricatives as vowels. Well, technically they’d be syllabic fricatives, but I think that’s as close as you can get in any language ([Wikipedia on syllabic consonants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant)). When I say “houses” it comes out “howz-zz.” [/QUOTE] What about masks? mas-ks-ks ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/10 "2008-03-05T20:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] There is another phoneme there. It’s called a glottal stop. Your glottis closes to separate the first _z_ from the second. I would have to hear you say the word to asses whether a vowel sound follows the glottal stop for you, but it does for everyone I’ve ever heard, and tends towards the short _i_ sound or the short _e_ sound, not the _schwa_, though. [/QUOTE] I wish I could upload audio. You may be right, but it’s not the same… lack of sound? as in “mountain” (mow’n). It’s more like “horror.” Actually, now that I’ve said the three words over and over while praying that nobody walks by, in all cases my tongue moves forward and upward between the two syllables. The difference is that with “horror houses,” there is no break in the sound, while in “mountain,” there is a distinct sound cut-off between them. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/11 "2008-03-05T20:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] I don’t understand the question. There are several English words, at least in my Californian English, that have fricatives as vowels. Well, technically they’d be syllabic fricatives, but I think that’s as close as you can get in any language ([Wikipedia on syllabic consonants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_consonant)). When I say “houses” it comes out “howz-zz.” Two syllables, two vowels. I’ve never been phonetically studied, so I can’t refute the hordes of people who will come in and tell me I’m really saying a schwa or some such, but I really don’t think there’s any vowel, even a reduced one, besides the fricative. Historically that was not the case, whence our spelling system (and I do hear many people prounouncing the word “howss-uz”). The notion that a, e, i, o, and u are the only vowels in English doesn’t match up with the spoken language. [/QUOTE] You said you don’t understand the question, but then you made several directly relevant remarks, including an exactly appropriate wikipedia article and everything. Anyway, I had the same impression as the author(s) of that article: > [@](#): > > The only time obstruents are used syllabically in English is in onomatopoeia, such as sh! [ʃ̩] (a command to be quiet), sss [s̩] (the hiss of a snake), zzz [z̩] (the sound of a bee buzzing or someone sleeping), and tsk tsk! [||] (used to express disapproval or pity)… But it seemed possible to me that fricatives _could_ be used as vowels in some language, especially given what I knew about the use of n and l as vowels in English. So I went a-askin’. And due to the informative link you provided, I now know of some candidate languages. Thanks for that! I _think_ there’s got to be a distinction between a syllable which contains a “normal” vowel phoneme but in which that vowel is often dropped in pronounciation, and on the other hand a syllable which has no “normal” vowel in it as a phoneme. So for example, perhaps I say “houszzz” in normal speech (I actually don’t think I do, but maybe you do, and maybe I do and just don’t know I’m doing it) but ask me to pronounce it carefully and I’ll say “houses” with the “e” sound. (What about in your case?) But I am sure there are plenty of people who, when asked to pronounce “button” carefully, will continue saying, slowly and carefully, “but’n”. I’d be really interested to know of an English word where some fricative is used like that ‘n’ in but’n, such that at least in some dialect people use it as a vowel even when they’re “on their guard” so to speak. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/12 "2008-03-05T20:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] I wouldn’t call a glottal stop a vowel; there’s a clear constriction. I don’t think it’s characterized as a fricative either; rather, a plosive (like ‘b’, ‘p’, ‘k’, ‘g’, ‘d’, ‘t’). [/QUOTE] Also, I’m really suprised if anyone puts a glottal stop between the s and the z in “house/z/”. But I’m often suprised. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/13 "2008-03-05T20:04:06Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] What about masks? mas-ks-ks [/QUOTE] Two "ks"s? I think most would just analyze this as one syllable, with a consonant cluster at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/14 "2008-03-05T20:10:39Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] You said you don’t understand the question, but then you made several directly relevant remarks, including an exactly appropriate wikipedia article and everything. [/QUOTE] Thanks. I was initially afraid I’d mistaken you completely. [QUOTE=Frylock] …perhaps I say “houszzz” in normal speech (I actually don’t think I do, but maybe you do, and maybe I do and just don’t know I’m doing it) but ask me to pronounce it carefully and I’ll say “houses” with the “e” sound. (What about in your case?) [/QUOTE] When I slow down, a true vowel appears, roughly matching the “u” in “put.” But now I’m second-guessing myself and “house-izz” doesn’t sound wrong, either. It’s definitely not an [e], in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/15 "2008-03-05T20:16:28Z")
I think **Frylock** was just referring to the orthographic \ in “houses”. For me, I would agree with your “house-izz” description. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/16 "2008-03-05T20:19:56Z")
How about Obama’s pronunciation of “Clinton” . . . “CLIN’n”? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/17 "2008-03-05T20:32:35Z")
That’s the glottal stop again, **panache45**. **Indistinguishable** , you caught the same error I did when I first posted. See my edited post. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/18 "2008-03-05T20:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] I wish I could upload audio. You may be right, but it’s not the same… lack of sound? as in “mountain” (mow’n). It’s more like “horror.” Actually, now that I’ve said the three words over and over while praying that nobody walks by, in all cases my tongue moves forward and upward between the two syllables. The difference is that with “horror houses,” there is no break in the sound, while in “mountain,” there is a distinct sound cut-off between them. [/QUOTE] You’re exactly right that there’s no way to be sure without actually hearing it. For me, _houses_ definitely has a glottal stop\*, but then for me there’s also no question about there being a vowel following it, either. It’s usually a short _e_ sound on me. (My linguistics professor in college was constantly in a battle trying to figure out if he pronounced _exit_ as _eksit_ or as _egzit_, because he couldn’t ever catch himself saying it without thinking about it.) - I sometimes have to put my fingertips on my throat to be able to tell, but not in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/19 "2008-03-05T20:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] You’re exactly right that there’s no way to be sure without actually hearing it. For me, _houses_ definitely has a glottal stop\*, [/QUOTE] Seriously, I’ve got to hear this. You’re saying you say it something like this: “hous’es”? With a little stop between the s and the e? -FrL- (I’m sitting here repeating “houses” over and over again in different ways and my wife is starting to think I need a minor exorcism. But I think I might be starting to get it–or anyway, I can get what sounds to me like a plausible pronounciation where the stop comes _before_ the first s rather than after. Kind of like “hou’ses”) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219/20 "2008-03-05T20:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Seriously, I’ve got to hear this. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I say it without the glottal stop myself. I could put the stop in there, I know what it sounds and feels like, but there ain’t no glottal stop in the way I say “houses.” To me it sounds like “how-ziz”. Do you put a glottal stop in “sis” or “zees”? Why would you in “houses”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fricatives-as-vowels/440219.md?page=2)