# Friday night, $2,000 at the casino **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 27, 2025, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555 "2025-04-27T06:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/101 "2025-04-29T16:30:31Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The machines are programmed to maintain a very specific return-to-player percentage - this is often achieved by feedback compensation - so if a large payout has occurred and the RTP is above the desired level, the odds of large payouts may be reduced to bring it back down, and vice versa. I do not believe that is true in most United States jurisdictions. Instead the results need to be random and use the Law of Large Numbers to get the expected rate of return (e.g. 94%). > [@Babale](#): > > Your fatal flaw is assuming that the machines are being _genuine_ when they communicate to you “look, I’m filling up, I’m almost near a win!”. I found out why slots developed the window to show you the symbols above and below the win line. Because they want you to see that 7 one click away and you’ll think, “I was so close.” In reality that one-click away has nothing to do with how close you came to winning but the human brain _thinks_ it does. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Why do you assume that ALL machines are deceiving us? Because that’s how they make money. The House™ wins in both the mathematics & the psychological warfare. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > You need to go to a casino to understand this. This statement worries me. Many of us have been to many casinos many times. But this sounds like a moon-landing denier or 9/11 CT statement that we would understand your position if only we have the super-secret Doctor Xavier knowledge that you possess. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > These games are designed for addicts, superstitious folks, and casual players like the tourists Watch how many people run the screen when the bonus bubbles are about to pop or the reels do the fast roll things. My question to you is how sure are you that you are not one of those led into believing, “That jackpot just gotsta hit.” ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/102 "2025-04-29T16:43:21Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Well, vultures who hover behind people’s shoulders when they’re playing slots trying to force them off a machine they’ve decided is hot seem like they’d make the casino’s other patrons uncomfortable, potentially to the point that they spend less time getting milked for their savings at the slot machine. That seems like a much clearer reason for casinos to get rid of them. > > Precisely. Owners could care less which machines you play, when you play them, if you’re using your player’s card or not, if you are playing only machines you think are “due”. All they care about is how may butts are in those seats putting money into those machines. If the “vultures” are making other patrons so uncomfortable that they move on to another casino of course they are going to discourage or kick them out. It has nothing to do with them thinking the vultures are taking advantage of the machines. > [@Hampshire](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Well, vultures who hover behind people’s shoulders when they’re playing slots trying to force them off a machine they’ve decided is hot seem like they’d make the casino’s other patrons uncomfortable, potentially to the point that they spend less time getting milked for their savings at the slot machine. That seems like a much clearer reason for casinos to get rid of them. > > Precisely. Owners could care less which machines you play, when you play them, if you’re using your player’s card or not, if you are playing only machines you think are “due”. All they care about is how may butts are in those seats putting money into those machines. If the “vultures” are making other patrons so uncomfortable that they move on to another casino of course they are going to discourage or kick them out. It has nothing to do with them thinking the vultures are taking advantage of the machines. They don’t put in enough money into the machines. There are times/days the casinos are at compacity. Idiots doing hit and run gaming will be taking seats from the ploppies who won’t mind donating their grandkids inheritance to the casino. If I were the casino and striving to make the largest profits, I would kick out APs too. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/103 "2025-04-29T16:53:52Z")
It ain’t just a river in Egypt ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/104 "2025-04-29T16:58:16Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Mangetout](#): > > > > The machines are programmed to maintain a very specific return-to-player percentage - this is often achieved by feedback compensation - so if a large payout has occurred and the RTP is above the desired level, the odds of large payouts may be reduced to bring it back down, and vice versa. > > I do not believe that is true in most United States jurisdictions. Instead the results need to be random and use the Law of Large Numbers to get the expected rate of return (e.g. 94%). > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Your fatal flaw is assuming that the machines are being _genuine_ when they communicate to you “look, I’m filling up, I’m almost near a win!”. > > I found out why slots developed the window to show you the symbols above and below the win line. Because they want you to see that 7 one click away and you’ll think, “I was so close.” In reality that one-click away has nothing to do with how close you came to winning but the human brain _thinks_ it does. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Why do you assume that ALL machines are deceiving us? > > Because that’s how they make money. The House™ wins in both the mathematics & the psychological warfare. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > You need to go to a casino to understand this. > > This statement worries me. Many of us have been to many casinos many times. But this sounds like a moon-landing denier or 9/11 CT statement that we would understand your position if only we have the super-secret Doctor Xavier knowledge that you possess. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > These games are designed for addicts, superstitious folks, and casual players like the tourists > > Watch how many people run the screen when the bonus bubbles are about to pop or the reels do the fast roll things. My question to you is how sure are you that you are not one of those led into believing, “That jackpot just gotsta hit.” It is not super secret. Just go to a casino or look at youtube videos and you’ll see it with your own eyes. I’m not going by belief or theory or conspiracy. I’m going by reality. Instead of sitting in your living room just talking, get out and _play_. This has nothing to do with 9/11 or moon-landing CT, there is literal proof that such games exist. To anyone who denies such, they have NOT played those games. Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. The credits need to be high enough to compensate for the money you put into the machine. Then cash out, because your +EV opportunity is over. Congrats, you’re now a hustler! ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/105 "2025-04-29T17:02:47Z")
Hardly anyone is talking about this because “AP” isn’t a get rich quick thing. Unless you are lucky and strike a huge jackpot early on. Or they are like people in this thread, they haven’t experimented with such. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/106 "2025-04-29T17:07:29Z")
While we are all busy googling //advantage play//, here are a few searches for you: //Confirmation bias// //gambler’s fallacy// //are YouTube videos always accurate// I’d also suggest you search for scientific studies demonstrating that slot machines have accurate tells or sometimes have a positive EV, but you won’t find any. ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/107 "2025-04-29T17:11:20Z")
Because slots aren’t designed to have +EV. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/108 "2025-04-29T17:11:25Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. The credits need to be high enough to compensate for the money you put into the machine. Then cash out, because your +EV opportunity is over. Congrats, you’re now a hustler! So you spend hours wandering the casino floor, looking for machines where you judge the expected value to temporarily be higher than the casino’s target of around 94-96%. Potentially the expected value is 1.05 or so. But unlike the casino, you don’t have pockets of nigh unlimited depth, so you’re not benefiting from the Law of Large Numbers here. And sometimes you misjudge the expected value, or just get unlucky. It doesn’t seem sustainable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/109 "2025-04-29T17:12:52Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Because slots aren’t designed to have +EV. Aren’t you making the claim that some slots **are** in fact designed to have periods of positive expected value, _and further_ that they give _visible indication_ that they are in such a state? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/110 "2025-04-29T17:18:15Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > It is not super secret. Just go to a casino or look at youtube videos and you’ll see it with your own eyes. I assume that most of the videos posted are for entertainment purposes, not all posted to reflect the grind. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > I’m going by reality. What is your thought process? What do you see on the slot. What actual data do you have? What do you know about the workings of the machine? And then with all of that information, what is your thought process to make a decision? I’m being honest, I may be missing something but it sounds like you’re using a slot equivalent of a roulette system. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Instead of sitting in your living room just talking, get out and _play_. This is insulting. I have played. Many times. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. How do you know the game is not structured like McDonalds Monopoly. All but one piece to the monopoly is common but that last piece is rare. If I were designing a bingo slot game that’s exactly how I would do it. That O69 you need is going to take forever o come up. ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/111 "2025-04-29T17:24:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Because slots aren’t designed to have +EV. > > Aren’t you making the claim that some slots **are** in fact designed to have periods of positive expected value, _and further_ that they give _visible indication_ that they are in such a state? Yes and no. These games are designed for ploppies who want to gamble their money away. These programmers KNOW their average customer. These ploppies seldomly cashout after winning their bonus, they continue playing hoping to win larger bonuses. Or, they might play for the action. If you factor in those base games and the bonus games together, the slot will still be in -EV state. Like yall said, that’s how casinos make their money. Your average customer isn’t going around hunting for bonus rounds, cashing out, and then running into the sunset. But these same games are unintentionally designed for “APs” too. The “tourist” type of player is a less common type of gambler. Tourists will get up and leave a machine right before the bonus goes off. “APs” get most of their hits from those type of customers. Yes, “APs” are seeking games that temporarily goes into an +EV state. ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/112 "2025-04-29T17:27:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. The credits need to be high enough to compensate for the money you put into the machine. Then cash out, because your +EV opportunity is over. Congrats, you’re now a hustler! > > So you spend hours wandering the casino floor, looking for machines where you judge the expected value to temporarily be higher than the casino’s target of around 94-96%. Potentially the expected value is 1.05 or so. But unlike the casino, you don’t have pockets of nigh unlimited depth, so you’re not benefiting from the Law of Large Numbers here. And sometimes you misjudge the expected value, or just get unlucky. > > It doesn’t seem sustainable to me. I said this wasn’t a get rich quick thing. Thank goodness I have a day job. Going by from what I hear from other “APs”, it’s hit or miss. Some barely make McDonald’s money, some make six figures. The latter play those huge must hit by games. They have enormous bankrolls. ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/113 "2025-04-29T17:31:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > It is not super secret. Just go to a casino or look at youtube videos and you’ll see it with your own eyes. > > I assume that most of the videos posted are for entertainment purposes, not all posted to reflect the grind. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > I’m going by reality. > > What is your thought process? What do you see on the slot. What actual data do you have? What do you know about the workings of the machine? And then with all of that information, what is your thought process to make a decision? > I’m being honest, I may be missing something but it sounds like you’re using a slot equivalent of a roulette system. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Instead of sitting in your living room just talking, get out and _play_. > > This is insulting. I have played. Many times. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. > > How do you know the game is not structured like McDonalds Monopoly. All but one piece to the monopoly is common but that last piece is rare. If I were designing a bingo slot game that’s exactly how I would do it. That O69 you need is going to take forever o come up. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > It is not super secret. Just go to a casino or look at youtube videos and you’ll see it with your own eyes. > > I assume that most of the videos posted are for entertainment purposes, not all posted to reflect the grind. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > I’m going by reality. > > What is your thought process? What do you see on the slot. What actual data do you have? What do you know about the workings of the machine? And then with all of that information, what is your thought process to make a decision? > I’m being honest, I may be missing something but it sounds like you’re using a slot equivalent of a roulette system. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Instead of sitting in your living room just talking, get out and _play_. > > This is insulting. I have played. Many times. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. > > How do you know the game is not structured like McDonalds Monopoly. All but one piece to the monopoly is common but that last piece is rare. If I were designing a bingo slot game that’s exactly how I would do it. That O69 you need is going to take forever o come up. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > It is not super secret. Just go to a casino or look at youtube videos and you’ll see it with your own eyes. > > I assume that most of the videos posted are for entertainment purposes, not all posted to reflect the grind. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > I’m going by reality. > > What is your thought process? What do you see on the slot. What actual data do you have? What do you know about the workings of the machine? And then with all of that information, what is your thought process to make a decision? > I’m being honest, I may be missing something but it sounds like you’re using a slot equivalent of a roulette system. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Instead of sitting in your living room just talking, get out and _play_. > > This is insulting. I have played. Many times. > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > Here’s one: “green machine” bingo. It plays like ordinary bingo. When you get “bingo” you are awarded whatever credits that are printed on the balls. If you want to “AP” that game, wait until someone gets one or more row/column filled with four spaces (and hope they cash out). Keep spinning until you get “bingo” you’ll be rewarded all the credits on that line. > > How do you know the game is not structured like McDonalds Monopoly. All but one piece to the monopoly is common but that last piece is rare. If I were designing a bingo slot game that’s exactly how I would do it. That O69 you need is going to take forever o come up. You’re not totally wrong. It is kind of hard getting that fifth ball. That’s why I said make sure that the credit prizes are high, to compensate for the money you put in the machine. And ideally there’s a free space. If you get “bingo” with a free space, you might get additional bonuses. And that particular game needs to have a high payback percentage. If it is low, chasing +EV might be very difficult. I won’t even play that game at certain casinos. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/114 "2025-04-29T17:32:57Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > It ain’t just a river in Egypt His name isn’t “mathematically-sound gambling enthusiast”, now is it? I find this thread fascinating. Sort of like a slow motion train wreck. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/115 "2025-04-29T17:33:37Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > But these same games are unintentionally designed for “APs” too. The “tourist” type of player is a less common type of gambler. Tourists will get up and leave a machine right before the bonus goes off. “APs” get most of their hits from those type of customers. Yes, “APs” are seeking games that temporarily goes into an +EV state. And I think that believing that a machine is in a +EV state just because the screen implies so is _incredibly_ naive. There is no incentive for the designers of the machine to _actually_ deliver you the information you need to calculate EV. In fact, their incentive is _exactly the opposite_, to always make you think your EV is as high as possible. Trusting someone whose incentive is to lie to you seems very foolish. > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > Going by from what I hear from other “APs”, it’s hit or miss. Some barely make McDonald’s money, some make six figures. The latter play those huge must hit by games. They have enormous bankrolls. [![](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Press-X-To-Doubt-Feature-Image.jpg) ](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Press-X-To-Doubt-Feature-Image.jpg) (Not the part about McDonald’s money, I can buy that.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/116 "2025-04-29T17:37:17Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > But these same games are unintentionally designed for “APs” too. No they aren’t. There is nothing in the design that’s unintentional and they are much smarter than you are. They are playing you and the ploppies but in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/117 "2025-04-29T17:37:30Z")
I now get what the OP is talking about, but it is buried in “advantage play”, +EV, slot tells, etc. which IMHO is all bullshit. The OP is talking about there being two ways to look at EV in a casino, short-term and long-term. The long-term we all know about … the house always win. But there is a gambling strategy in short-term. I’m going to play 5 hands of blackjack or $10 of slots. If I hit big I immediately walk away. Surprisingly this can be very effective (accounting for confirmation bias) like when I went to a casino for lunch with the family. $50 and 5 plays on roulette single-number @ $10 per play. 33 came up on the second spin and I walked away and the family had a **really** good lunch. I think the OP is mistaken for winning hard and fast as some sort of system. It’s not. It’s hope for a short term win and don’t give it back. ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/118 "2025-04-29T17:38:11Z")
Those games totally do. Perhaps, the programmers are the naive ones. 🙂 Go and play some Green Machine Bingo and get back to me. I don’t NEED to be a “mathmatically-sound gambling enthusiast”. Maybe if I want to play optimally. But for beer money and comped rooms, no. That’s like saying you need to understand physics and geometry to play baseball well. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/119 "2025-04-29T17:39:19Z")
> [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > You’re not totally wrong. It is kind of hard getting that fifth ball. That’s why I said make sure that the credit prizes are high, to compensate for the money you put in the machine. And ideally there’s a free space. If you get “bingo” with a free space, you might get additional bonuses. And that particular game needs to have a high payback percentage. If it is low, chasing +EV might be very difficult. I won’t even play that game at certain casinos. But how do you know it is +EV? E(winnings) = payout X p(win) You know the payout but how do you know p(O69)? ---
**Author:** ![MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ec9cab/32.png) [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MW_Degen_Gamblr)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2025, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555/120 "2025-04-29T17:40:28Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@MW\_Degen\_Gamblr](#): > > > > But these same games are unintentionally designed for “APs” too. > > No they aren’t. There is nothing in the design that’s unintentional and they are much smarter than you are. They are playing you and the ploppies but in different ways. Maybe not DESIGNED, but they work in ways “APs” can take advantage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/friday-night-2-000-at-the-casino/1017555.md?page=7)