# Frisco Foots Bill for Gov't Employee Transgender Ops--Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2001, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149 "2001-05-02T23:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/21 "2001-05-03T22:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess thats why its not really a mental disorder. Most of the duress is caused by other people. Its a disorder the same way being gay was 30 years ago. I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here… is it: 1. Social persecution received by TG people today is similar to the persecution experienced by gays 30 years ago. 2. Being gay is a physical disorder of some kind 3. Something else altogether? > [@](#): > > It is really a physical disorder. One that is entirely in the mind but none the less a physical disorder. Asmodean… uhh you kind of lost me. How can something entirely in the mind be a physical disorder? How are you defining “physical disorder”? > [@](#): > > Transgendered people do not change their sex because of other people or depression. As I understand it TG people change their sex because they feel that they were “born into the wrong body” or something along those lines. If that’s not generally true then please enlighten me. Grim ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/22 "2001-05-03T23:02:19Z")
Pariah wrote, in the OP: > [@](#): > > I also understand that the desire for gender reassignment surgery is far deeper, \ “Gender” is whether you _identify with_ being a male or a female, which bathroom you use, how you dress, whether you check the “M” or “F” box on your drivers license application, etc… “Sex” is what plumbing you have. The surgery is technically “SEX reassignment surgery”, performed on someone to make their sex match their gender. “Gender reassignment surgery,” if such a thing existed, would be some kind of bizarre operation to alter your personality. I got these definitions from a friend of mine who has gone through sex-reassignment surgery. \ ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/23 "2001-05-03T23:04:39Z")
1 If I remember correctly gays used to be considered to have a mental disorder. Well there is a big physical piece of brain matter in your mind. By physical I mean that gays are and transgendered are born that way. Mental disorders can be treated mentally, maybe with drugs, being gay or transgendered can’t. > [@](#): > > As I understand it TG people change their sex because they feel that they were “born into the wrong body” or something along those lines. If that’s not generally true then please enlighten me. They do it for that purpose, not for other people or because of depression. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/24 "2001-05-03T23:30:24Z")
Asmodean… Ok, using the “born with the wrong body” as our working reason for why TG’s get SRS let me make a small alteration to “Joe”. In addition to… > [@](#): > > Let’s say we have a hypothetical man named Joe. Joe has a very high pitched feminine sounding voice. Because of this he has been ridiculed and tormented his entire life by insensitive peers of his and he has found his voice an impediment in his attempts to get a date. Joe attributes his ongoing battle with depression to the characteristics of his voice. Assuming there was an operation which could change the tone/pitch of his voice to be deeper and more masculine, would you support tax payer dollars being spent to subsidize Joe’s vocal chord surgery? I’ll add that the primary reason he wants the surgery is because he strongly feels that he was born with the wrong voice and that he won’t feel normal until he’s able to achieve the correct voice through surgery. Is the analogy lacking still? If so, how? If not should we subsidize his surgery? Grim ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/25 "2001-05-04T02:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Snooooopy \* > \*\*This is just a fantastic development, because I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body. \*\* As a transgendered lesbian, I do not find this funny. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/26 "2001-05-04T02:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chrome Spot \* > \*\*Right to the bottom of the thread and post, without looking at the whole argument: > > I understood (or thought I did) that most transsexuals end up no less unhappy about themselves and their lives than before surgery. IF that is the case, it would be foolish to subsidize the surgery. \*\* A recent study I read (which I don’t have a link for ATM, sorry) stated that (IIRC), when the Standards of Care are followed, female-to-male reassignment has a 98% acceptance rate (meaning 98% are at least as happy afterwards as compared to before) and male-to-female has a 93% acceptance rate. On the other hand, patients who are unable to obtain surgery are 25% likely to commit suicide (another study I read back in the early 90s). The most common cause of being denied surgery is financial. In addition, the heavy financial cost often drives transsexuals to turn to prostitution, drugs, or crime to raise funds for their surgery. As a matter of public policy, it makes sense to pay for reassignments when the SOC is followed. By the way, on at least three occasions I am aware of federal courts have so ruled, with respect to Medicare and Medicaid, twice in Texas and once in Iowa. I am told there are other such cases, where states have attempted to refuse to pay for a reassignment and been subsequently ordered to do so by a federal court. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/27 "2001-05-04T02:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pariah \* > \*\*The medical profession has conjured up medications to treat the most obscure of ailments–and if they don’t understand it, they have many drugs they can throw at it anyway. Why, it could be argued, is this expensive surgery _necessary_ when, by the standards of many other mental disorders it would seem gender dysfunction is _psychologically_ treatable? > \*\* Transsexualism is **not** psychologically treatable. There is no effective means to treat it other than through reassignment. Individuals with mild cases may be able to live a less-than-fulfilling life with the heavy use of antidepressants, but this is not “effective”. Individuals whose dysphoria is severe are likely to require “mindkiller” drugs like Thorazine to keep them from injuring themselves (selfmutilation is common amongst sufferers with severe gender dysphoria), and this cannot be considered an “effective” treatment when there is another option which is about 90% effective in producing an individual who is able to live a normal (if nonreproductive) life. My gender dysphoria is only “moderate”; I’ve never actually tried to chop my little bits off (although I have occasionally had the urge to do so). Most of my adult life has been visited by moderate to severe depression and I never found happiness for more than a short time. Just starting hormones felt like lifting my head out of a cloud of fog. Since transitioning I have felt more alive and more connected with the world than I ever did when I was still “trying to cope”. I am quite certain that if someone told me that I had to give up my little purple pills and that I could never have reassignment surgery, I would kill myself. It’s only been recently that I haven’t kept some means to kill myself in my mind as a fallback for something happening that would bar me from proceeding closer to reassignment. Life isn’t really all that good when you’re planning your own death on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/28 "2001-05-04T02:30:31Z")
[http://www.annelawrence.com/prosandcons.html](http://www.annelawrence.com/prosandcons.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/29 "2001-05-04T20:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll add that the primary reason he wants the surgery is because he strongly feels that he was born with the wrong voice and that he won’t feel normal until he’s able to achieve the correct voice through surgery. Is the analogy lacking still? If so, how? If not should we subsidize his surgery? Well its still diffren’t, because it is more than a feeling. Transgendered people are actually born with non matching minds and bodies(mostly). Feelings can and do occur strongly because of reasons besides being transgendered. Thats where you get the 2% and 7% whom had some other reason for wanting SRS. Feeling strongly shows conviction in ones own statements, but that could also occur because of irrationality:). ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/30 "2001-05-04T22:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Transgendered people are actually born with non matching minds and bodies(mostly). How is it objectively determined that TG people are born with minds that somehow physically don’t match their bodies? Or is it not possible to objectively determine this? Grim ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/31 "2001-05-04T22:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grim\_Beaker \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Transgendered people are actually born with non matching minds and bodies(mostly). > > How is it objectively determined that TG people are born with minds that somehow physically don’t match their bodies? Or is it not possible to objectively determine this? > > Grim > \*\* I have read recent studies in sex differences in brain function that support this. Makes sense since recent studies blame TS on in utero exposure to certain chemicals such as pesticides. I will look for the studies. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/32 "2001-05-04T23:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > How is it objectively determined that TG people are born with minds that somehow physically don’t match their bodies? Or is it not possible to objectively determine this? Its probably done by psychological tests and such. Really I think the most common test is the "real life test"™. Since it is thought that any transgendered person will want so badly to be the other sex they simply impose a year living life as the opposite sex before they can get SRS. There are brain differences but no one knows enough to say “hey you have this, your transgendered” ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149/33 "2001-05-05T01:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*Its probably done by psychological tests and such. > \*\* There is no “magic test” they can give you to tell you if you’re transgendered. Ultimately, the test is whether you’re determined enough to convince the therapist. The SOC are very effective at eliminating false positives, but have been criticized for creating false negatives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frisco-foots-bill-for-govt-employee-transgender-ops-thoughts/64149.md?page=1)