# Frodo, Sam, Meriadoc or Peregrin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819 "2009-07-30T22:45:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/21 "2009-07-31T18:53:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sending Eonwe would have been a mistake. If Olorin, the wisest of the Maiar, feared to bear it lest he be corrupted, I wouldn’t expect Eonwe to do any better. > > Back to the OP, I’ve long maintained that it’s Sam, not Frodo, who’s the hero of the book. Frodo’s got all that angsty fate stuff going on, but Sam is just an ordinary guy who does the right thing because it’s the right thing. > > Meanwhile, any nominations for Fredegar Bolger? Like 'em fat, do ya? 😛 Alarms! Alarms! Fear, fire, foes, Awake!!! Me, I want Lobelia. Think about it: you’d never have to make a decision in your life. Simpler, that way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/22 "2009-07-31T18:53:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Back to the OP, I’ve long maintained that it’s Sam, not Frodo, who’s the hero of the book. I think Frodo says as much. Moreover, there are structural reasons to prefer Sam as the protagonist of Books IV and VI rather than Frodo. The further the story gets along, the more necessary it is to stay out of Frodo’s head. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/23 "2009-07-31T20:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Me, I want Lobelia. Think about it: you’d never have to make a decision in your life. Simpler, that way. Yes, but all of your decisions are still wrong, anyway. Go along with everything she says, and she’ll still chide you for being a wuss, and not standing up for yourself. And I think any of the Valar would just laugh at the Ring, but of course they all know enough not to interfere. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/24 "2009-07-31T22:44:31Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Sam, however, never fails the whole time. He hands over the Ring voluntarily, always a hard task. He sees right through Sméagol, which shows him to be percipient. Actually, Frodo’s trust of Sméagol was crucial to the success of the quest (and as Skald has pointed out, it did succeed). Sam’s treatment of Gollum was a catastrophic failure. If he had been kind to him or just kept his mouth shut at key moments, they could have avoided Shelob’s lair altogether. Of course that would have made for a less interesting book. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/25 "2009-07-31T22:51:58Z")
In addition, Sam is certainly a hero and an important point of identification for the reader, but Frodo is clearly the protagonist in the sense that his actions move the story forward. He would have failed without Sam, but without Frodo Sam wouldn’t have left the Shire until the Shadow was at his door. Without Frodo, there would be no story to move forward. Without Sam, there would still be a story, albeit a shorter and bleaker one. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/26 "2009-07-31T23:45:43Z")
Sméagol was always going to lose out to Gollum, regardless. And his decision on this was probably certain once Faramir got ahold of him the way he did. Or so I think. ---
**Author:** ![Monkey\_Chews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Monkey\_Chews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monkey_Chews)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/27 "2009-08-01T10:13:10Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > …but this probably won’t be the basis for much sexual attraction. > One would hope, anyway. :eek: Why not? Frodo is hot. I love shorties. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/28 "2009-08-01T12:28:05Z")
> [@Monkey\_Chews](#): > > Why not? Frodo is hot. I love shorties. As above. And I’m only five feet tall anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/29 "2009-08-01T20:48:20Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Sméagol was always going to lose out to Gollum, regardless. And his decision on this was probably certain once Faramir got ahold of him the way he did. Or so I think. Tolkien thought differently. A strange expression passed over his lean and hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo’s knee—but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing. But at that touch Frodo stirred and cried out softly in his sleep, and immediately Sam was wide awake. The first thing he saw was Gollum—“pawing at master,” as he thought. “Hey you!” he said roughly. “What are you up to?” “Nothing, nothing,” said Gollum softly. “Nice Master!” “I daresay,” said Sam. “But where have you been to—sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?” "Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall. [INDENT]- The Two Towers [/INDENT] 3019 March 11 Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly repents. [INDENT]- Appendix B [/INDENT] If [Sam] had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect. ‘Nothing, nothing’, said Gollum softly. ‘Nice master!’. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob’s lair became inevitable. [INDENT]- [letter](http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.tolkien/msg/324eda9176e604e7) [/INDENT] So Gollum’s near-repentance is strongly implied in the narrative and made explicit elsewhere. Tolkien even sketched an alternate ending which is similar in its climax to the canonical version but in which Sméagol sacrifices himself willingly. If Sam had not halted Sméagol’s “interior debate,” Frodo would not have been poisoned by Shelob or tormented by Orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, and Sméagol could have died in a state of grace. In other words, he fucked things up bad. Of course his reaction was understandable and his suspicions were largely correct – Gollum _had_ been doing some villainous sneaking. But if Frodo can be judged a failure for not achieving the impossible, than Sam can be considered a failure for doing the expected. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/30 "2009-08-02T00:23:21Z")
Although that may have been true of that episode, it doesn’t matter. The closer he got to the influence of evil, the more inevitable his slide back into selfishness. If not with Shelob, then with the orcs, or in some other way. Which Sam saw. Again, that’s my opinion, and what JRRT says there isn’t in opposition to it, really, since it only addresses that one incident. YMMV. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/31 "2009-08-03T17:47:24Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I’ll pick who I want to be, since I don’t want to sex it up with any of them, and that would be Sam. He gets an adventure and still gets a wonderful life at the end, the kind of life I would love to have. Not to mention the fact that he apparently gets to go to Valinor and live forever. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/32 "2009-08-03T18:26:41Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Although that may have been true of that episode, it doesn’t matter. Sam: Would it matter to you if I was responsible for that nasty spider bite? Frodo: You mean when I was attacked and nearly devoured by one of the most horrifying monsters in creation, which left me with an injury from which I can never be healed in this world and resulted in my being abducted and brutalized by orcs, imperiling our entire mission and causing a delay that probably meant hundreds if not thousands of unnecessary deaths on the battlefield? Why should that matter? Sam: That’s what I thought. Frodo: So what do you mean, if you were responsible? Sam: Purely a hypothetical question. How’s the book coming along? > [@](#): > > The closer he got to the influence of evil, the more inevitable his slide back into selfishness. If not with Shelob, then with the orcs, or in some other way. Which Sam saw. Again, that’s my opinion, and what JRRT says there isn’t in opposition to it, really, since it only addresses that one incident. YMMV. 🙂 I don’t see why Tolkien would draw such attention to that incident in the story itself and in the appendix and refer to it later as the “most tragic” moment in a book full of tragic moments unless it mattered to the outcome of the story. He does say that Gollum would ultimately have to seize the ring by force, but that he would even then remain in some sense loyal to Frodo. Pragmatically, it would not behoove him to betray Frodo to orcs, who would undoubtedly take the ring themselves, either as booty or to hand over to Sauron or his lieutenants. > [@cjepson](#): > > Not to mention the fact that he apparently gets to go to Valinor and live forever. In Tolkien’s world, mortals don’t get to live forever (except in the sense that no one who is telling knows for sure what happens to their souls after the deaths of their bodies). He wrote in a letter: “Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to ‘pass away’: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time.” I think Sam’s fate is ambiguous. It is related as sort of a family tradition that he sailed West, but not stated with absolute certainty. This allows for the possibility of a happy reunion without sacrificing the Bagginses special status as the only mortals _known_ to have been invited to live out their lives there. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/33 "2009-08-03T19:01:19Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Not to mention the fact that he apparently gets to go to Valinor and live forever. Men (of which Hobbits are a subspecies) do not live forever, even in Valinor. In fact, going to the Undying Lands may well accelerate the aging process. See the Akallabeth for confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819/34 "2009-08-03T21:27:53Z")
From a human point of view, you can view Valinor as the best nursing home in the world. You still grow old and die, but in the mean time, you’re as comfortable as you can be anywhere in this World, and the company is good. I would expect that the Bagginses (and Sam, and Gimli, and anyone else who ended up in Valinor legitimately) probably had a higher life expectancy than they would otherwise have as a result, simply from a lack of violence and what one might label better medical technology, but even so, that’s just postponing the inevitable a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/frodo-sam-meriadoc-or-peregrin/504819.md?page=1)