# From a Christian perspective - what if Jesus DIDN’T get crucified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046 "2024-05-02T02:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/21 "2024-05-02T14:53:33Z")
nm. I’m not qualified to opine on the Christian perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/22 "2024-05-02T19:33:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think that would make a fascinating alt history setting, where universalist proselytizing religions never took off and instead different regions of the world follow different polytheistic religions. I must admit the hypothetical has me pondering a timeline where Jesus goes more of a Paul Atreides direction, wins over the Sanhedrin who pronounce him king of the Jews, starts a revolution, and winds up Emperor of Rome. Perhaps in the long run you get a more Jewish form of Roman Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/23 "2024-05-02T19:40:42Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But I’m with the others, in that Christianity as it stands today, pretty much _HAS_ to have Jesus die and rise again And if he didn’t die on a cross, they would need a whole new logo. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/24 "2024-05-02T19:59:17Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > e.g. If Jesus had committed the genocidal depopulation of all Egypt with the wave of His hand to make a homeland for His people, that’d yield a different story than if He chose to make the entire desert from modern Libya to modern Turkey to modern Saudi Arabia bloom by abundant annual rainfall that continues to this day. This would also change the overall narrative from “The New Testament God is a God of love and forgiveness” to “The New Testament God is still the God of obedience and punishment”. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/25 "2024-05-02T20:17:09Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > And if he didn’t die on a cross, they would need a whole new logo. This was my first thought. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/26 "2024-05-02T20:32:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Judaism doesn’t proselytize, it is an older sort of religion that doesn’t claim to be universal - it’s intrinsically linked to a specific ethnic group. So I doubt you’d have half the world turn Jewish (although if Christianity and Islam don’t arise there might be quite a few more Jewish people alive today). No it doesn’t. But it did, both BCE and CE, up to the mass conversion to Islam in the early 7th century. In 125 BCE Yohanan Hyrcanus conquered Edom and forcibly Judaized its population (Josephus _Antiquities of the Jews_ 15.9.) The Hasmoneans also forced gentiles to circumcise. Then there’s of course the Jewish monarchy in what today is Yemen, and the Elephantine island in Egypt, among many others, which clearly weren’t believers stemming from the Jewish _ethnos_. Whether this would’ve made made Judaism a religion on par in influence and size with modern Christianity is another question. My personal opinion is ‘probably not’. The stroke of genius by Paul was to ditch the whole law and covenant with the LORD, making it much easier to convert pagans/gentiles. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/27 "2024-05-02T20:43:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > One paints the entire ethnoreligous group as being responsible for the Crucifixion, Just want to add John 10:18: No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”" ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/28 "2024-05-02T21:20:06Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > And if he didn’t die on a cross, they would need a whole new logo. This thread reminds me of an SF book: _The Last Starship from Earth_ by John Boyd. It starts off in an alternate universe where Jesus was not crucified, but instead died by someone shooting him with a crossbow during the storming of Rome. In that universe, the Christian logo is a crossbow. > **[The Last Starship from Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Starship_from_Earth)** > > The Last Starship from Earth is a 1968 science fiction novel by John Boyd, and is his best known novel. > The novel is set in a dystopian society in the very near future. Although it is not obvious at first, this is also an alternate history story. > In this world, instead of preaching peace and forgiveness and being crucified, Jesus became a revolutionary agitator and assembled an army to overthrow the Roman Empire, establishing a theocracy before being killed by a crossbow, which becomes a relig... ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/29 "2024-05-02T21:28:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m imagining a world where Jesus’ divinity isn’t in question and the practice of blood sacrifice as atonement for sin from the Old Testament is correct, but for whatever reason Jesus’ trip to Jerusalem doesn’t result in Him becoming a martyr. Where does He go from there? All the stuff about the crucifixion having something to do with sin or atonement comes from the 4th century or later. At the time the significance was that being resurrected showed his divinity. The Jewish messiah does not get murdered by the people he’s opposing, and especially does not “hang from a tree.” It seems pretty apparent that the historical Jesus got crucified and the resurrection stuff was a myth tacked on to explain how someone who didn’t meet any of the actual Jewish prophecies could be the messiah. But that’s somewhat conjectural, as opposed to the timeline of atonement theories emerging which can be easily shown from sources. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/30 "2024-05-02T21:41:49Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > the resurrection stuff was a myth tacked on to explain how someone who didn’t meet any of the actual Jewish prophecies could be the messiah. It’s almost as if they had access to the ‘Old Testament’ and wrote the Jesus story to fulfill it. > Zechariah 9:9 > “Say to the daughter of Zion, behold your king is coming to you, gentle and mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.” > Matthew 21 > As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.” > This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/31 "2024-05-02T22:10:04Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > The Jewish messiah does not get murdered by the people he’s opposing, and especially does not “hang from a tree.” It seems pretty apparent that the historical Jesus got crucified and the resurrection stuff was a myth tacked on to explain how someone who didn’t meet any of the actual Jewish prophecies could be the messiah. But that’s somewhat conjectural, as opposed to the timeline of atonement theories emerging which can be easily shown from sources. Right. I’m quite aware of the multiple theories about Jesus as a historical figure, Euhemerized celestial being, culture hero, etc. For the purposes of this thread my interest is in speculating what happens to a Jesus who is what the Bible says He is, but doesn’t get crucified. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/32 "2024-05-02T23:35:48Z")
Are you proposing that God made a plan, but it didn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/33 "2024-05-02T23:49:49Z")
Yeah, the reason Marjorie Taylor Greene should be called out for the old “the Jews killed Jesus” canard is because killing Jesus was God’s plan. And it’s amazing how long Christians have not been able to follow that simple plot point. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/34 "2024-05-03T00:34:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you proposing that God made a plan, but it didn’t work? Not at all IMO. I’m not @Smapti, so he can propose his own interpretation, but I believe his counterfactual is simply that the alternate timeline God had a _different_ plan for how Jesus’ time on earth would unfold. One that didn’t include crucifixion and resurrection, but instead had [blah, blah, blah, blah]. Our job in this thread is to propose a specific value for [blah, blah, blah, blah] and the consequences of that on 21st century Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/35 "2024-05-03T00:49:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you proposing that God made a plan, but it didn’t work? Maybe he wanted us to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/36 "2024-05-03T00:55:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’m not @Smapti, so he can propose his own interpretation, but I believe his counterfactual is simply that the alternate timeline God had a _different_ plan for how Jesus’ time on earth would unfold. One that didn’t include crucifixion and resurrection, but instead had [blah, blah, blah, blah]. > > Our job in this thread is to propose a specific value for [blah, blah, blah, blah] and the consequences of that on 21st century Christianity. Right. It’s not entirely consistent from gospel to gospel - in Mark we don’t meet Jesus until he’s an adult, his baptism seems to be the first time he’s realizing he’s of divine nature, he believes God has forsaken him on the cross, and the nature of his resurrection is left vague, whereas in John he’s talking about his death and resurrection from the very beginning of his ministry, way before it even happens. I tend to assume that the Jesus of Mark is closer to the historical figure than the Jesus of John, but in either case it seems like death and resurrection was part of the plan from the beginning. Assuming that God doesn’t go Old Testament and “harden the hearts” of the Romans to make his death inevitable, there’d have to be some sort of Plan B for Jesus to accomplish his mission if the authorities refuse to kill him. Does he deliberately try to get himself martyred, or does he try to become a king like the messiah is supposed to in the prophecy? I suppose you might call this Bible fanfic, but so was Paradise Lost and I think more of what I learned in Sunday school came from that than from the actual Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/37 "2024-05-03T01:06:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > or does he try to become a king like the messiah is supposed to in the prophecy? That would require a retcon when it came to the prophesies, because 1. The messiah prophesied was human and 2. The messiah prophesied was a direct descendant of David. The way out of this mess would be to declare that Jesus was not the prophesied messiah (who was still to come), but a _separate_ entity that was a personification of God on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/38 "2024-05-03T01:19:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > - The messiah prophesied was human and > - The messiah prophesied was a direct descendant of David. Isn’t the entire purpose of Matthew 1 to establish those two points? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/39 "2024-05-03T04:15:12Z")
If so, it failed miserably…unless you can show another adoption of someone else’s child in that long linage. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/40 "2024-05-03T05:20:30Z")
You’re really still fighting the hypothetical here. I’m trying to get at the idea of what Jesus, as in Jesus the character in the Bible whose life as described therein is accurate to the character, would have done if he hadn’t been crucified and how that would affect the world that that Jesus lived in where his teachings are true and his theology is correct because those are the rules of that universe, and you’re prodding at the narrative and talking about retcons instead. This is really the equivalent of responding to “Why didn’t Frodo just ride an eagle into Mordor?” by pointing out that hobbits aren’t real. Let me put it this way - if the Bible was a book of fiction that came out in, let’s say, the '70s, and Jesus was understood to be a fictional character in that book, what would that character have done if he hadn’t been crucified, and what result would it have had on the other characters in that world? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046.md?page=3)