# From a Christian perspective - what if Jesus DIDN’T get crucified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046 "2024-05-02T02:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/41 "2024-05-03T05:25:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > That would seem to leave 2 options for the crucifixion not happening. 1: Jesus would not accept the Father’s will or 2 the Father changed His mind or it was a test (like Abraham ready to slaughter his son, which was canceled at the last moment) . > > If it were 1, Jesus would have stepped outside the will of the Father, and thus break what we call the trinity, ‘God is one’. Which I suspect would have the same consequences as Adam and Eve eating the fruit. Jesus would be man in a fallen state. > > If it was 2, Jesus would not be the way, as salvation would not be through Jesus. This would run contrary to the Father’s purpose of glorifying His son and having Jesus receive His inheritance, which was apparently the purpose of creation. There would always be the separation between God and us, instead of brother/sisterhood through Chirst. This is more the kind of answer I’m looking for. What do you suppose a path to salvation would look like for mankind in such a world? ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/42 "2024-05-03T12:48:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’re really still fighting the hypothetical here. I’m trying to get at the idea of what Jesus, as in Jesus the character in the Bible whose life as described therein is accurate to the character, would have done if he hadn’t been crucified and how that would affect the world that that Jesus lived in where his teachings are true and his theology is correct because those are the rules of that universe, and you’re prodding at the narrative and talking about retcons instead. It sounds like you don’t really understand a few things that you claim to: 1. Jesus _is_ a “character in the Bible.” The most consistent, most accepted secular historical interpretation of the origin of Christianity is that the Gospels were written two generations after the death of the historical Jesus, by people very much engaged in the debates of the time, none of whom had any firsthand experience with the events described therein, and are structured to lobby for certain doctrinal points. 2. The entire narrative around the crucifixion and resurrection is in fact a “retcon” crafted to address what the Gospel authors viewed as one of the fundamental issues, which is: if the Jewish messiah will lead the Jews to political independence, create a utopian state, select certain people including himself to live incredibly long lifespans, and very specifically not be executed by hanging from a tree, then how can someone who got very quickly executed on a cross before doing anything to change the political situation in Judaea be the messiah? 3. The “theology” of Jesus and the Gospels says nothing about salvation through blood atonement, or Trinitarianism. These concepts did not exist for another 250 years. To Christians in the first three centuries, the “point” of the Jesus story is in part a message about socioeconomic equality, and largely a reminder that this guy really was the (literal, non-Trinitarian, separate person, didn’t exist before being conceived) son of God because he came back to life after dying. Any answer that uses expressions such as “salvation through Jesus” or “God the Father,” or dwells on how the “purpose of Jesus’s mission” could have been achieved without his death, is back-projecting Christian theology that didn’t exist at the time onto the story. So you’re free to write whatever theology or fan fiction you want to, but saying “I just want to focus on a hypothetical question about the Jesus of the Bible and how he would have addressed [a bunch of things that aren’t in the Bible and nobody involved in composing the Bible had ever heard of]” isn’t a sensible question, especially when what you are trying to remove is a large chunk of what the entire purpose of composing the Gospels was in the first place. It’s more akin to asking “what would have happened in an alternate version of Lord of the Rings if Frodo used an iPhone to tell Gandalf where he was, and shared his opinions about stem cell research during the conversation” and for some reason insisting that “Tolkien didn’t know what those things were, nor did anyone until long after he was dead, so a story that involves them would be completely different story written by someone else for completely different purposes, and thus could be about anything at all and you need to realize you’re just asking me to write a new novel from scratch” is not a valid answer. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/43 "2024-05-03T14:09:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This is more the kind of answer I’m looking for. What do you suppose a path to salvation would look like for mankind in such a world? What you are asking is the theological equivalent to what if something else happened before the big bang. His Son is the very reason for creation itself and everything will ultimately be reconciled to Jesus (Col 1:20), and Creation was created for Jesus (Ro 11:16). And it was the Father’s will to crush His Son (Is 53:10-13). And the Father’s plan can not be thwarted (Job 42:2 - Not my best cite as that is Job talking, but the concept is there in other places) OK speculating: If Jesus was unable or unwilling to accept his fate, Jesus would be unworthy to accept His reward. It really does not matter how it happens. Salvation I suppose would have to come through the Father, or perhaps from the Spirit. However, no matter how it comes, which it will as no one can snatch us from the Father’s hand, the larger question is what happens to Jesus. On our current timeline, Jesus becomes the only one worthy, and gains his inheritance, which is ironically us. Before this time It appears no one was worthy. I read this as parallel to a coming of age story where Jesus moves from a role of a child to that of an adult. And has obtained worthiness in His own right. How do we know that Jesus was a child? Well for one, Creation was created by Him (Col 1:16), yet it involved an error so egregious that it required Jesus to die to correct it. On that alternate timeline, using the coming of age analogy Jesus would be a failure to launch, a ‘ch-adult’ With His Father always parenting Him, instead of Jesus coming to His own and receiving the honor due His position. Jesus may still be King, but not by His own right, but placed there by the Father. This alternate timeline really would call into question the Father’s parenting skills. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/44 "2024-05-03T16:10:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps Judas refuses to betray him This is ruled out by Jesus prophesizing his betrayal. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/45 "2024-05-03T16:25:11Z")
You can’t claim that Jesus is the divine son of God and that God is infallible, while also putting forth a “whoops, what if God’s plan falls through?” scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/46 "2024-05-03T16:54:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m imagining a world where Jesus’ divinity isn’t in question Matthew 20, Jesus specifically predicts he will be crucified in Jerusalem. If it doesn’t happen, Jesus is exposed as a false prophet. Maybe ten times Jesus predicts his death in Jerusalem and explains why this is necessary. If you throw out the crucifixion and predictions of it, it must be assumed Jesus predicts another means of execution instead. That doesn’t seem to be what you want here. The passion of Christ is such a central theme in Christianity that the entire theology rests on it. Without Jesus’s martyrdom there is no basis for the doctrine of original sin. It doesn’t make sense to ask what else Jesus was attempting to accomplish. Jesus the man was at all times attempting to carry out the will of God, which included his death. At the hands of the Romans. In Jerusalem. By crucifixion. Taking all the premises as granted - what you’re really doing here is asking, if God was different, how would things turn out? But you aren’t saying what God would have Jesus do instead. So there isn’t a clear answer. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/47 "2024-05-03T20:20:14Z")
St Paul certainly thought it was crucial. _“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain”_ (1 Corinthians 15:12-19) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/48 "2024-05-03T20:23:07Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Without Jesus’s martyrdom there is no basis for the doctrine of original sin Even with it, some would say. Why couldn’t he do something easier, like stop for a hot dog for our sins? The whole idea that he had to _suffer_ for our sins was his idea to start with (or his dad’s). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/49 "2024-05-03T20:26:06Z")
Is it fighting the hypothetical to say that, if he wasn’t crucified (and then resurrected), his followers would have fabricated his crucifixion and resurrection? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/50 "2024-05-03T20:37:07Z")
Some, But why would they? Remember it was only one of the Gospel writers who was so fixated on making Jesus fit all the OT prophecies. And that was after Jesus died. No, in the case of the historical Jesus, he’d just go down as some sort of Prophet. In the case of the Trinity Jesus, the Father would arrange something. So, that part _is_ fighting the hypothetical, if Jesus really was the Son of God- everything was foretold and would occur. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/51 "2024-05-03T21:10:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you proposing that God made a plan, but it didn’t work? Sure. An Omniscient ™ God would know exactly what would happen if Jesus wasn’t crucified. And every other possibility, no matter how unlikely. Some of these eventualities may even have been better than the version we are familiar with. Who can tell? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/52 "2024-05-03T21:36:06Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Without Jesus’s martyrdom there is no basis for the doctrine of original sin. Umm, how is Jesus’ martyrdom the basis for the doctrine of original sin? I coulda swore it’s basis was fruit eating in a garden. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/53 "2024-05-04T20:42:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm, how is Jesus’ martyrdom the basis for the doctrine of original sin? > I coulda swore it’s basis was fruit eating in a garden. Nope, since the Jewish peoples have no such concept. **Augustine of Hippo** came up with the idea- that yes- due to the Sin in the garden- you can only be saved due to Christ Dying for Our Sins, thus you need to be baptized, etc ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/54 "2024-05-04T21:40:41Z")
According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, JC was nailed to an upright stake without any crosspiece. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/55 "2024-05-05T11:00:02Z")
Yes they do however even so I don’t see how that changes anything as long as Jesus was hung on some sort of tree as apparently that causes a curse. So AFAIK it’s a distraction without consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/56 "2024-06-18T01:11:38Z")
Taking you up on your proposition, the Qur’an verse 4:157 says “but they did not kill him and they did not crucify him… of a certainty, they did not kill him.” The next verse answers your question: “Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” Yeah, it’s kind of skimpy on details. ---
**Author:** ![breakneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e99b99/32.png) [@breakneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/breakneck)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/57 "2024-09-02T00:04:16Z")
> **Hidden** > > Why does it Matter . Alot of people were crucified. I never met this Jesus guy . For my sins ? what sins . Why does this Jesus guy have anything to do with me . Fictional Book of lies ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/58 "2024-09-02T16:01:36Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/59 "2024-09-02T16:02:25Z")
**Moderating** : and this is what we call a threadshit. This is not from the Christian perspective and a weird post to bump a thread 3 months quiet. Please don’t do this again. I will hide your post. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-what-if-jesus-didn-t-get-crucified/1001046/60 "2024-09-02T16:02:44Z")
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