# From a Christian perspective - what's the biblical case for inclusion on lgbtq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694 "2024-05-17T12:37:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/21 "2024-05-17T16:19:54Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > And really, the story doesn’t seem to be about inclusion of adulteresses so much as about the fact that all are sinners Or more about sinners judging other sinners. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/22 "2024-05-17T16:27:57Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > When people talk about “inclusion on lgbtq” (to quote the thread title), do they really mean a situation in which the church tells homosexuals to leave their lives of sin? Sorry if I wasn’t clear. No, when I’m talking about “inclusion”, I mean that lgbtq can be pastors, and that churches can bless same-sex marriages, i.e., lgbtq is not even discussed when talking about sin. To me, that’s what inclusion means. It doesn’t mean telling people, “sure, attend church, but you must leave that part of your identity behind or you’ll never be fully accepted here.” ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/23 "2024-05-17T16:40:04Z")
Washing after sex of any kind seems to cover it then, and that is always a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/24 "2024-05-17T16:46:10Z")
The only Biblical argument I can think of is the “don’t pull up the weeds with the wheat” argument that Jesus uses - that even though LGBTQ is wrong, according to the Bible, it’s not the job of Christians to meddle in or police them or weed them out - in other words, no theocracy by man’s power. Otherwise, the Bible is a blatantly anti-gay book. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/25 "2024-05-17T16:49:56Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > Sorry if I wasn’t clear. No, when I’m talking about “inclusion”, I mean that lgbtq can be pastors, and that churches can bless same-sex marriages, i.e., lgbtq is not even discussed when talking about sin. To me, that’s what inclusion means. It doesn’t mean telling people, “sure, attend church, but you must leave that part of your identity behind or you’ll never be fully accepted here.” That’s what I thought. So how do you get from Jesus telling the adulteress to “go and sin no more” (or “leave your life of sin”) to what you’re describing? And on what basis do you conclude that this is something that should be “included” and other enumerated sins shouldn’t be. It’s common in these discussions for people to point (as they have in this thread) to “love thy neighbor” or “judge not” or casting stones. And if the conclusion was that people (as sinners who have all “fall[en] short of the glory of God”) could _never_ condemn _any_ behavior and could advocate for no conduct restrictions and could speak of no sins, then that would be an interesting discussion. But that’s not the conclusion they reach. People who say that “love thy neighbor” overrules language identifying particular sins only mean that with respect to the conduct that they themselves don’t think is sinful (or that they wish to engage in). They’d revise 1 Corinthians 6 to keep some of the categories and omit others. And they’re not drawing a distinction that is based on “judge not” or love of neighbor. It’s just selective editing based on their own personal mores. Which I guess brings us back to: what do you believe to be authoritative? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/26 "2024-05-17T16:52:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Otherwise, the Bible is a blatantly anti-gay book. Is it any more anti-gay than it is anti-divorce or anti-mixed clothing or anti-saying Jehovah or Jesus Christ? Seems like one line in the OT and one line in the NT, from everything posted so far. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/27 "2024-05-17T17:15:51Z")
So, here’s Walter Brueggemann on the topic: > **[Walter Brueggemann: How to read the Bible on homosexuality](https://outreach.faith/2022/09/walter-brueggemann-how-to-read-the-bible-on-homosexuality/)** > > The full acceptance and embrace of LGBTQ persons follows as a clear mandate of the Gospel in our time. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/28 "2024-05-17T17:16:58Z")
So the two bigs things that I’d add: - Most of the 8-9 passages are from the old testament where homosexuality is banned in the same way having tattoos or eating pork is banned. Christians do not consider themselves beholden to that part of the “old covenant” - The new testament does also have some passages saying that Christians unlike the rest of “The World”, should not practice “homosexuality”. But the kind of “homosexuality” (the word used was not that, as that was a 19th century term) accepted in the “The World” at the time (meaning the Greco-Roman urban society that the new testament was written in) was basically pedophilia, and it’s that the new testament passages are prohibiting. A monogamous homosexual relationship between consenting adults was absolutely not socially acceptable in the Greco-Roman world. Roman writers in that era were pretty scathing of people who had gay sex with adult men. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/29 "2024-05-17T17:56:39Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > But I’d suggest the first question is whether the Epistles are authoritative at all. On their face, the Epistles are letters address to particular communities in a particular time facing particular issues. Paul also admits he makes mistakes, does what he shouldn’t do and doesn’t do what he should, and even admits he is giving instructions not of the Lord. So I do agree with you, but the epistles are pretty much the very justification for the authority of the Church itself and in my experience it’s a very hard sell, since such a line of reasoning will invalidate their own authority. I have found that the epistles are given extra biblical authority and in church’s rival the teachings of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/30 "2024-05-17T18:09:26Z")
Can I assume that all churches that are anti-LGBTQ also do not allow women to speak in church? That’s also in One Corinthians. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/31 "2024-05-17T18:31:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Paul also admits he makes mistakes, does what he shouldn’t do and doesn’t do what he should, and even admits he is giving instructions not of the Lord. > > So I do agree with you, but the epistles are pretty much the very justification for the authority of the Church itself and in my experience it’s a very hard sell, since such a line of reasoning will invalidate their own authority. I have found that the epistles are given extra biblical authority and in church’s rival the teachings of Jesus. The UMC has female pastors, and one of our arguments is that Paul isn’t speaking for all-churches over all-time. Plus, we can quote other scripture that discusses female leadership in various parts of the Bible. And we can talk about the life of Jesus, and how he interacted with women, compared to the culture surrounding him at the time. So IMO, arguments that rely on a few passages from Paul without context can be misleading on certain issues. Having said that, I haven’t seen as much of a biblical case for lgbtq inclusion as I’ve seen for female leadership in churches. I think ultimately it behooves denominations like the UMC to make that case. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/32 "2024-05-17T18:46:46Z")
Thank you for this thread! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/33 "2024-05-17T18:54:02Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > Having said that, I haven’t seen as much of a biblical case for lgbtq inclusion as I’ve seen for female leadership in churches. It seems like Paul is really clear on this: > As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. It seems like it would be tough for a silent and submissive pastor to do much pastoring. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/34 "2024-05-17T19:09:45Z")
IMHO, it should be considered suspicious by both liberals and conservatives - atheist or Christian - that an ancient book written in ancient times is suddenly considered to be pro-LGBT once modern society becomes pro-LGBT. As someone said, that’s like seeing that a square peg (the Bible) can’t fit into a round hole (modern society,) so you get a knife and whittle that peg into a round shape, then claim it was round all along. But then when society becomes a triangular hole, suddenly the same person whittles that round peg into a triangular peg, then claims it was triangular all along. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/35 "2024-05-17T19:15:52Z")
The point is that it’s pretty silent on it, just a couple of lines mixed in with other lines that include prohibitions on wearing mixed clothing and prohibitions on women speaking in church. I think it should be considered suspicious that an ancient book written in ancient times is suddenly considered pro-women’s rights. Women back then certainly didn’t have any rights – they were their husband’s property. Why are women allowed to be treated equally, but not LGBTQ people? Arguing against LGBTQ inclusion is arguing against women owning property, being pastors or rabbis, being elected officials, essentially having any sort of independent life from their husband or father. ETA: It’s even worse, really. Gay and trans people were probably fairly hidden back then, probably spoken about in hushed tones if at all. Being a woman was very common, and there was a common understanding that women didn’t have rights, and that’s also codified all over the bible, Old and New. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/36 "2024-05-18T01:31:14Z")
That was a thoughtful and, for me, persuasive read. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/37 "2024-05-18T14:34:56Z")
It’s the strongest case I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/38 "2024-05-18T15:26:40Z")
Wouldn’t the much touted, ‘all forgiving’, pretty much cover it? I’m pretty sure the bible tells Christians not to stand in judgement of other people’s sins and to be concerned only with their own. (I mean the ‘ALL FORGIVING’, bit sounds good but he did totally freak about an apple, so…) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/39 "2024-05-18T15:29:20Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’m pretty sure the bible tells Christians not to stand in judgement of other people’s sins and to be concerned only with their own. If a church says to gay people, “Homosexuality is wrong, but who are we to judge you? That’s between you and Jesus”, I would assume it also doesn’t perform gay marriages? I don’t find that very “welcoming”. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694/40 "2024-05-18T15:43:40Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Which I guess brings us back to: what do you believe to be authoritative? I’ve noticed Christians pick and choose. I knew one who read her Bible daily and she said my pastor who was a woman wasn’t a real pastor because Romans. So I retorted by calling her a common streetwalking whore for not wearing a hat because Corinthians. She then explained how the commandment in Romans against women leaders was for everyone everywhere everytime whereas the commandment for women to wear hats outdoors was only for those people at that location at that time. I’ve resolved many of the issues brought up in the Epistles by presuming Paul was a self-loathing homosexual in denial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-christian-perspective-whats-the-biblical-case-for-inclusion-on-lgbtq/1001694.md?page=3)