# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/61 "2013-10-24T20:00:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Fairly ordinary people? Does “fairly ordinary” include [widespread illiteracy](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_literacy_map_UNHD_2007_2008.png)? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/62 "2013-10-24T20:05:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Does “fairly ordinary” include [widespread illiteracy](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_literacy_map_UNHD_2007_2008.png)? Are you implying that they don’t have brainpower to learn to read, or are you just conflating illiteracy with low IQ? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/63 "2013-10-24T20:11:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Common sense says that literature, philosophy, and works of art are not necessarily created by your average person. And you don’t have to be very smart to participate in commerce. > > By the way, can you give me three examples of the literature to which you are referring? If you are sincere in your ignorance, do a search on Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and/or read “Half of a Yellow Sun”. It’s an excellent novel that will dispel any myth about African mental inferiority. I’m currently reading “Happiness, Lke Water” by Chinelo Okparanta. Also very good. Hell, every ninth grade with a decent education has at least heard of “Things Fall Apart” by Chinua Achebe. The library is full of works by African writers. I really hope your query is sincere and not some bigoted “gotcha”. (I once went to town on a poster on another board who claimed Duke Ellington wasn’t a “real” composer since he could’t read music (which is just a flat-out lie). He was citing the lack of black musical composers as proof that black people are stupid no-good-niks.) Don’t care for most African cuisine. You’ll never see me in a headwrap, and my kenti cloth days are behind me. But (west) African music and literature are absolutely awesome. It’s a shame that there are folks who don’t know (or won’t admit) this. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/64 "2013-10-24T20:14:18Z")
> [@Bob's Zombie](#): > > Short answer: the science is garbage. People who espouse these theories are (sometimes) pretty skilled at using jargon to hide the weakness of data or ignoring inconvenient facts or simply transferring claims about one group of people to another, but the facts aren’t there. That does nothing to deter them, of course. They’re just telling it like it is[n’t]. The science supporting the valid and reliable measurement of intelligence, commonly indexed as IQ, is not garbage and is not jargon. The data is strong. Linking intelligence to race and thence genetics is the garbage part. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/65 "2013-10-24T20:15:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Linking intelligence to race and thence genetics is the garbage part. Yes, it is. In that case maybe I misunderstood what you meant by “IQ denialism.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/66 "2013-10-24T20:18:59Z")
> [@Bob's Zombie](#): > > Are you implying that they don’t have brainpower to learn to read, or are you just conflating illiteracy with low IQ? I am questioning the claim that a visit to Africa, combined with simple observation of Africans, will reveal “fairly ordinary people” and refute the claim that there is a relatively low average IQ there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/67 "2013-10-24T20:21:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I am questioning the claim that a visit to Africa, combined with simple observation of Africans, will reveal “fairly ordinary people” and refute the claim that there is a relatively low average IQ there. And what do literacy rates have to do with that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/68 "2013-10-24T20:24:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Which IQ test are you referring to? Which subscale(s) are you referring to as “written”? Do you have examples of commonly used IQ tests which aren’t written? I’m sure they must exist but I’m guessing they’re pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/69 "2013-10-24T20:41:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Do you have examples of commonly used IQ tests which aren’t written? I’m sure they must exist but I’m guessing they’re pretty rare. The WISC and the WAIS are the most commonly used, and involve very little writing of any kind. The KBIT involves no writing. Ravens matrices involve no writing. I’ve never administered a Stanford Binet, but my understanding is that it involves very little writing. Can you tell me a standardized IQ measure that does involve significant writing? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/70 "2013-10-24T20:41:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What would one see in Africa which refutes such a claim? Africans. If the average IQ in sub-Saharan Africa was 70, the average African would essentially have the intelligence of the kid who played “Corky” on Life Goes On. That’s what a 70 is; a relatively smart Down Syndrome sufferer. It is patently obvious Africans are not actually that stupid. This would take a person with any degree of brain function at all about thirty seconds to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/71 "2013-10-24T21:09:00Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I am questioning the claim that a visit to Africa, combined with simple observation of Africans, will reveal “fairly ordinary people” and refute the claim that there is a relatively low average IQ there. Answer the question: what does illiteracy have to do with IQ (and hence, intelligence)? You demonstrated a massive hidden assumption here and should back it up or maybe admit there was a bit of prejudice showing through. The counter-argument was presented. People with an average IQ of 70 are not capable of sustaining the sort of modern society we see and would demonstrate what we would consider severe dysfunction. Simple observation of average people on the street would show this is not the case. Literacy has nothing to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/72 "2013-10-24T21:19:49Z")
> [@Bob's Zombie](#): > > And what do literacy rates have to do with that claim? Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/73 "2013-10-24T21:23:38Z")
No, illiteracy is _correlated_ with low intelligence but not that strongly on these types of scales. Otherwise, our (both in the US and around the world) average intelligence has drastically improved over the last couple centuries, especially over the last 50 years and especially in developing countries. And that’s too fast to be genetic in nature and speaks to just the types of assumptions and prejudices you should try to avoid in making even remotely scientific statements. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/74 "2013-10-24T21:33:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. No. It is not. If the only factor that prevented literacy was intelligence, you might have a point. Literacy depends on the availability of teachers, the availability of written works (in the language known to a group), the money available to acquire written works if they happen to be available, the time available to spend reading, the benefit to an individual who might engage in reading, and numerous similar factors. Pointing to any level of literacy as “evidence” of intelligence is, itself, a rather unintelligent claim. Charlemagne had sufficient intelligence to consolidate and rule an empire. He spoke multiple languages and was illiterate in every one of them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/75 "2013-10-24T22:01:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is patently obvious Africans are not actually that stupid. This would take a person with any degree of brain function at all about thirty seconds to figure out. Specifically what evidence would they see in interactions with a representative sample of Africans? What are the particulars? Have you yourself experienced such interactions? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/76 "2013-10-24T22:22:38Z")
Literacy didn’t pan out, so on to the next avenue of attack? Can we nip this Gish Gallop in the bud, please? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/77 "2013-10-24T23:29:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Common sense says that literature, philosophy, and works of art are not necessarily created by your average person. Their creation requires a society that can support specialized artisans and thinkers. [QUOTE=brazil84] And you don’t have to be very smart to participate in commerce. [/quote] You can’t participate in a modern, abstract, specialized economy with an IQ of 70. And you posit that this is the _average_, meaning that half of Africans are actually under that. [QUOTE=brazil84] By the way, can you give me three examples of the literature to which you are referring? [/QUOTE] [Here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_literature) Go nuts. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/78 "2013-10-24T23:39:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Does “fairly ordinary” include [widespread illiteracy](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_literacy_map_UNHD_2007_2008.png)? It is absolutely normal in situations where there are weak school systems. Look at your own map- are you arguing, for example, that Laos is an island of genetic stupidity in a sea of genetically intelligent Asians? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/79 "2013-10-25T00:27:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You can’t participate in a modern, abstract, specialized economy with an IQ of 70. And you posit that this is the _average_, meaning that half of Africans are actually under that. Go nuts. Nitpick, average is not the middle point, that’s median. You can have 90% of the population above 70 if the remaining 10% are a long way down the scale and still have an average of 70. Anyway I don’t buy this whole IQ/genetics debate, seems very simplistic at best. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/80 "2013-10-25T00:34:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. I’m reminded of how in the early days of IQ testing, the tests were used to “prove” that the French were stupid because immigrants from France did poorly on IQ tests…written in English. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=5)