# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/81 "2013-10-25T00:52:04Z")
[quote=“sisu, post:79, topic:672041”] Nitpick, average is not the middle point, that’s median. You can have 90% of the population above 70 if the remaining 10% are a long way down the scale and still have an average of 70. [\QUOTE] Whoops, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/82 "2013-10-25T00:56:07Z")
To be fair, **HA** , if your population is normally distributed, the mean and the median are the same. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/83 "2013-10-25T01:26:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Their creation requires a society that can support specialized artisans and thinkers. Assuming that’s true, so what? > [@](#): > > You can’t participate in a modern, abstract, specialized economy with an IQ of 70. Why not? > [@](#): > > Here. So “literature” includes oral storytelling? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/84 "2013-10-25T02:55:22Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. That is honestly one of the stupidest posts I’ve ever seen on the SDMB. That’s the equivalent of arguing that South African blacks are clearly vastly more intelligent than white Americans because most white Americans can only speak English while most black South Africans speak multiple languages. What idiot told you that illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence? Should we next argue that Palestinians on the West Bank are clearly more intelligent than Israelis because most Palestinians on the West Bank can speak Arabic and Hebrew while most Israelis can’t speak Arabic? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/85 "2013-10-25T03:02:09Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So “literature” includes oral storytelling? Do you think people with IQs of 70 would be capable of making up such long oral tales and memorizing them? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/86 "2013-10-25T04:48:45Z")
How many times is Brazil84 going to debate that blacks are inferior to whites? Just wondering why people bother having the same debate with the same “scientific” racist the same way, until he slumps back down into his moist cave again until the next time. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/87 "2013-10-25T07:10:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Illiteracy is evidence of low intelligence. No, in general it’s evidence that one has not had access to literacy training; in many societies (including, not so many generations ago, those you and I live in), literacy isn’t a necessary skill at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/88 "2013-10-25T09:12:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So “literature” includes oral storytelling? Of course it does. You were not aware of this? There are numerous written works by African authors, of course, as well. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/89 "2013-10-25T09:53:28Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It is absolutely normal in situations where there are weak school systems. Ok, so I guess your answer is “yes,” i.e. in your view widespread illiteracy is “fairly ordinary.” If so, I would like to know your definition of “fairly ordinary” so that I can scrutinize your argument that simple observation of Africans effectively refutes any claim that they have very low average intelligence. Please tell me your definition so that I can understand your argument. > [@](#): > > Look at your own map- are you arguing, for example, that Laos is an island of genetic stupidity in a sea of genetically intelligent Asians? No, I am questioning your claim that simple observation of Africans conclusively refutes any claim that they have very low average intelligence. Your argument seems to be as follows: 1. Anyone who visits Africa will see, just from simple observation, that the people there are “fairly ordinary” 2. It is impossible for a group of people who are “fairly ordinary” to have very low average intelligence. 3. Therefore simple observation conclusively refutes any claim that Africans have very low average intelligence. In order to understand and respond to this argument, I need to know what you mean by “fairly ordinary.” (Apparently it includes widespread illiteracy.) I realize that my argument is likely to be misconstrued to be an argument that widespread illiteracy in Africa demonstrates very low average intelligence, but that’s not my argument. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/90 "2013-10-25T09:57:52Z")
> [@Sorgine](#): > > No, in general it’s evidence that one has not had access to literacy training; Well do you agree that a person or group with low intelligence is more likely to be illiterate than a person or group with high intelligence? More to the point, do you agree that if Africans have very low average intelligence, one would expect (generally speaking and on average) greater rates of illiteracy there than other places? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/91 "2013-10-25T09:59:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Do you think people with IQs of 70 would be capable of making up such long oral tales and memorizing them? I would guess that some of them would be able to do so, yes. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/92 "2013-10-25T10:03:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m reminded of how in the early days of IQ testing, the tests were used to “prove” that the French were stupid because immigrants from France did poorly on IQ tests…written in English. There is a difference between proof and evidence. I’m certainly not arguing that widespread illiteracy in Africa is proof of very low average intelligence there. I’m simply challenging **even sven** ’s argument that simple observation of Africans is all that is necessary to conclusively refute any claim that they have low average intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/93 "2013-10-25T10:12:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What would one see in Africa which refutes such a claim? You’re really going to argue that the assertion that the average IQ in Africa is “functionally retarded” is not on-its-face ludicrous? _Really?_ > [@brazil84](#): > > Does “fairly ordinary” include [widespread illiteracy](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_literacy_map_UNHD_2007_2008.png)? Holy shit. You _are_ going to argue that. And you’re going to do so with one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever seen. _Literacy must be taught_. You don’t learn to read if nobody around you can read. You don’t learn to read without someone to teach it to you. And the educational systems in most of sub-saharan Africa are absolutely atrocious. Illiteracy in cultures ill-equipped to teach it or that don’t value it is not a gauge of overall intelligence. Posting incredibly dumb, racist arguments, however, is. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/94 "2013-10-25T10:23:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You’re really going to argue that the assertion that the average IQ in Africa is “functionally retarded” is not on-its-face ludicrous? _Really?_ Yes really. > [@](#): > > Holy shit. You _are_ going to argue that. And you’re going to do so with one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever seen. Lol, just as I expected and predicted in Post #89, my argument has been misconstrued. I am happy to debate with you, but please read my posts carefully and respond to the points I actually make. > [@](#): > > . Posting incredibly dumb, racist arguments, however, is. Lol, what about misconstruing other peoples’ arguments when they explicitly made clear what they were NOT arguing? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/95 "2013-10-25T10:28:09Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes really. I think that tells me literally everything I want to know about you. _Wow_. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/96 "2013-10-25T10:32:49Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think that tells me literally everything I want to know about you. _Wow_. Lol, if you prefer not to actually debate anything, that’s fine with me. As I said though, if you do want to respond to my posts, please take the time to read them carefully and respond to what I have actually said. Just in case, I will ask you this: Do you agree with the following argument, which seems to be what **even sven** is arguing? 1. Anyone who visits Africa will see, just from simple observation, that the people there are “fairly ordinary” 2. It is impossible for a group of people who are “fairly ordinary” to have very low average intelligence. 3. Therefore simple observation conclusively refutes any claim that Africans have very low average intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/97 "2013-10-25T10:40:22Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > . . . until he slumps back down into his moist cave again until the next time. Do not call other posters trolls in this forum, even obliquely. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/98 "2013-10-25T10:43:20Z")
**brazil** , I really don’t care if you “understand my argument.” What you are saying is laughably absurd, akin to saying Chinese women have sideways vaginas. Fly in to, say, Lusaka. Have some beers, make some friends, maybe pick up some work. Perhaps find a girlfriend and visit her parents in the village. Then come back and tell us about it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/99 "2013-10-25T10:46:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you agree with the following argument, which seems to be what **even sven** is arguing? > > 1. Anyone who visits Africa will see, just from simple observation, that the people there are “fairly ordinary” > > 2. It is impossible for a group of people who are “fairly ordinary” to have very low average intelligence. > > 3. Therefore simple observation conclusively refutes any claim that Africans have very low average intelligence. Yes. Through my wife’s previous job I have encountered a number of people with “below average” intelligence. I also work with people with several people with below average intelligence who are not profoundly disabled. These are people who are nice human beings who work at lower tier jobs, successfully, but in any interaction with them, it is very clear that they are not of average intelligence. There is no way that an entire country of such people would not present differently than a nation of people whose intelligence was average. It is absurd to claim otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/100 "2013-10-25T11:03:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > **brazil** , I really don’t care if you “understand my argument.” In that case, our discussion is concluded. If you insist that “fairly ordinary” includes widespread illiteracy, it’s reasonable for me to ask exactly what you mean by “fairly ordinary.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=6)