# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/101 "2013-10-25T11:26:10Z")
It’s not even worth debate, because there’s virtually zero evidence that sub-Saharan Africans have an average IQ of 70. The data is just terrible, and totally unsupportable. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/102 "2013-10-25T12:29:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assuming that’s true, so what? It’s indicative that the average citizen isn’t borderline mentally disabled. > [@brazil84](#): > > Why not? Do you participate in commerce? It requires creating and following schedules, counting, budgeting, learning complex tasks and performing them accurately, planning for the future, adapting to rapid unanticipated changes, and many other skills at which the mentally disabled struggle. > [@brazil84](#): > > So “literature” includes oral storytelling? It certainly could, but there’s plenty of written literature in that article. > [@brazil84](#): > > 1. Anyone who visits Africa will see, just from simple observation, that the people there are “fairly ordinary” > > 2. It is impossible for a group of people who are “fairly ordinary” to have very low average intelligence. > > 3. Therefore simple observation conclusively refutes any claim that Africans have very low average intelligence. Maybe you’re simply not aware of how low an IQ of 70 is. Such a person is _not_ “fairly ordinary”, and their disability becomes obvious within moments of speaking with them. All three points above are correct. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/103 "2013-10-25T12:36:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > In that case, our discussion is concluded. If you insist that “fairly ordinary” includes widespread illiteracy, it’s reasonable for me to ask exactly what you mean by “fairly ordinary.” Illiteracy is a slippery topic often read to mean that someone can’t understand a price tag or a street sign. That would be the most extreme and unrealistic level, when depending on the test it could mean not able to read and full analyze a dense novel. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/104 "2013-10-25T12:55:17Z")
Would anyone like to actually support the claim that the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70? I mean, [there are posters who don’t understand why the claim is incredibly, mind-blowingly dumb](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16788941#post16788941), but would the OP care to provide any evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/105 "2013-10-25T13:17:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That is honestly one of the stupidest posts I’ve ever seen on the SDMB. Don’t speak too soon. This thread will probably go on for a few more pages. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/106 "2013-10-25T13:35:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Would anyone like to actually support the claim that the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70? I mean, [there are posters who don’t understand why the claim is incredibly, mind-blowingly dumb](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16788941#post16788941), but would the OP care to provide any evidence? The claim is literally impossible. IQ scores are derived only in relation to the normed reference group for a population. The average IQ for a population has to be 100, of there is something wrong with the norming procedures that were used. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/107 "2013-10-25T13:53:42Z")
It seems to me it’s sort of unproductive to take something formalized and structured by one group of people–an IQ test–and try to apply it across a different group. Mother nature doesn’t work that way. She rewards successful reproduction, period. Our mobility as humans gives us an interesting mix of isolated ectotypes and reasonably contiguous clines. What does it mean to apply an IQ test developed out of a western culture to an Mbuti? Sure; IQ tests are not culturally-biased per se, but the whole paradigms of the two groups are so utterly distinct that excluding “cultural bias” seems insufficient to me. IQ tests correlate well with “intelligence” as we have framed it in the developed world. The probably also correlate–though less accurately–with what we might call intellect in general. But applying them to groups of people who are tens of thousands of years separated by evolutionary changes seems suspect to me, even if those peoples now all live in the same connected world… I think it’s similarly unproductive to promote average group intelligences as if intelligence were an achievement and not an accident of birth. But if you do insist on looking for “average” intelligence, it seems to me there are better proxies than IQ tests. Those are measures such as the ability to absorb and improve upon imported ideas, the ability to innovate, the richness of self-awareness or philosophy and the like; the capacity to respond or alter the natural order; and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/108 "2013-10-25T14:00:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not even worth debate, because there’s virtually zero evidence that sub-Saharan Africans have an average IQ of 70. The data is just terrible, and totally unsupportable. I’m not sure I disagree, but I’ve always wondered why, instead of hurling criticisms at existing datasets, new datasets are not simply created by those who insist the existing ones are nonsense…would not the persuasiveness of such an approach be an order of magnitude more substantial? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/109 "2013-10-25T14:01:40Z")
IQ measures ARE culturally biased. That is why they have meaning only in relation to a normed reference group for a given population. IQ measures also are more like your last paragraph than people seem to understand.\* They are not written tests. They are not like the SAT. They assess crystalized knowledge as well as fluid reasoning. They tap processing speed and performance. \*Excepting that of course, actually operationalizing the constructs you suggest does not seem feasible to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/110 "2013-10-25T14:06:53Z")
Illiteracy has nothing to do with intelligence. As [these illiterate Ethiopian](http://updates.gizmodo.com/post/34694603553/ethiopian-kids-hack-their-olpc-tablets-in-5) children show. Brazil, feel free to comment on African intelligence when you’ve hacked Android five months after never seeing a computer before…or reading. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/111 "2013-10-25T14:11:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > In that case, our discussion is concluded. If you insist that “fairly ordinary” includes widespread illiteracy, it’s reasonable for me to ask exactly what you mean by “fairly ordinary.” No food here-moving on. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/112 "2013-10-25T14:17:37Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m not sure I disagree, but I’ve always wondered why, instead of hurling criticisms at existing datasets, new datasets are not simply created by those who insist the existing ones are nonsense…would not the persuasiveness of such an approach be an order of magnitude more substantial? Because we’re not really very good at assessing intelligence on a large scale across multiple cultures, let alone in a single culture. Because developing and implementing such a test would be expensive. Because there’s really no scientific, cultural, or political need to develop an IQ test for the pseudo-scientific concept of race. You’re looking for scientific data to support a theory that no one with any knowledge of the field cares about. The only people who still need persuasion aren’t going to be persuaded by better data. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/113 "2013-10-25T14:53:41Z")
> [@Charredcasm](#): > > No food here-moving on. Dude, the zombie thing is for fun. To use it to insult another poster as you’ve done here is just plain silly. No warning issued, but don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/114 "2013-10-25T14:59:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Would anyone like to actually support the claim that the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70? I mean, [there are posters who don’t understand why the claim is incredibly, mind-blowingly dumb](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16788941#post16788941), but would the OP care to provide any evidence? In answer to your question, you might want to watch [this lecture](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM) by the late Prof. Phillippe Rushton (FWIW). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/115 "2013-10-25T15:01:05Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > In answer to your question, you might want to watch [this lecture](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM) by the late Prof. Phillippe Rushton (FWIW). Rushton has been so thoroughly discredited that citing him is worthless, a fact that has been pointed out several times in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/116 "2013-10-25T15:02:02Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > In answer to your question, you might want to watch [this lecture](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM) by the late Prof. Phillippe Rushton (FWIW). That’s a one hour lecture-could you boil it down/give us the highlights? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/117 "2013-10-25T15:08:22Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > In answer to your question, you might want to watch [this lecture](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM) by the late Prof. Phillippe Rushton (FWIW). Citing Rushton on race is like citing Monckton on climate. He’s a complete waste of brain matter, his research is flawed to the point of being completely useless and he either doesn’t understand what he’s talking about or is a liar. But even if this weren’t a known factor, I’m not about to watch an hour-long lecture. Give me a research paper, or an article, or something that doesn’t involve me watching a stupid racist blather on for almost 60 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/118 "2013-10-25T15:15:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Illiteracy has nothing to do with intelligence. As [these illiterate Ethiopian](http://updates.gizmodo.com/post/34694603553/ethiopian-kids-hack-their-olpc-tablets-in-5) children show. > > Brazil, feel free to comment on African intelligence when you’ve hacked Android five months after never seeing a computer before…or reading. When you consider the factors suggested by the Flynn effect it seems likely that those children would score higher on IQ tests at the end of the five months. These celebrations of the technologically proficient African get a bit tiresome, though. I don’t mean that program or ones like it, just our consumption of the media products surrounding the phenomenon, products which simplify and minimize the situation in an effort to create something digestible by their target demographic. I think people forget sometimes that having a tablet does not protect you form cholera any more than a fixie or ironic mustache. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/119 "2013-10-25T15:24:30Z")
> [@Charredcasm](#): > > That’s a one hour lecture-could you boil it down/give us the highlights? Well, according to him, he gave an IQ test once to an entire hall filled with black and white university students in South Africa. The room was air conditioned and very comfortable. The students were allowed to take as long as they wanted. And the test was based on culture free Raven Progressive Matrices. At the end of it, he said, the black students scored an average of 85. He then extrapolated that the average IQ of the larger black population must be 70 since university students typically have average IQs that are 15 points higher than the average population. I know the reasoning is questionable, but its his research. Anyway, another guy called Richard Lynn also estimated it to be 70 using his own (disputed) methods. As a consequence, this figure has become very popular among afro-bashers on the internet. Sometimes it is even claimed to be as low as 65. If you want to know more about this controversy, please just google it and look it up yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/120 "2013-10-25T15:32:25Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > Well, according to him, he gave an IQ test once to an entire hall filled with black and white university students in South Africa. The room was air conditioned and very comfortable. The students were allowed to take as long as they wanted. And the test was based on culture free Raven Progressive Matrices. At the end of it, he said, the black students scored an average of 85. He then extrapolated that the average IQ of the larger black population must be 70 since university students typically have average IQs that are 15 points higher than the average population. I know the reasoning is questionable, but its his research. The correct term for this isn’t “questionable,” it’s “bullshit.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=7)