# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/121 "2013-10-25T15:39:21Z")
> [@Bob's Zombie](#): > > The correct term for this isn’t “questionable,” it’s “bullshit.” These “studies” sound just as sound as the suggested design of taking one representative baby from each race and raising them together on an island. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/122 "2013-10-25T15:45:03Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > Well, according to him, he gave an IQ test once to an entire hall filled with black and white university students in South Africa. The room was air conditioned and very comfortable. The students were allowed to take as long as they wanted. And the test was based on culture free Raven Progressive Matrices. At the end of it, he said, the black students scored an average of 85. He then extrapolated that the average IQ of the larger black population must be 70 since university students typically have average IQs that are 15 points higher than the average population. I know the reasoning is questionable, but its his research. > > Anyway, another guy called Richard Lynn also estimated it to be 70 using his own (disputed) methods. As a consequence, this figure has become very popular among afro-bashers on the internet. Sometimes it is even claimed to be as low as 65. > > If you want to know more about this controversy, please just google it and look it up yourself. I checked it already, suffice to say this “controversy” is at the level of creationists demanding that we should teach the controversy, in reality the vast majority of experts already know to not to take [Pioneer Fund people like Lynn or Rushton](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/pioneer-fund) seriously. > **[The Pseudoscience of Race Differences in Penis Size](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/unique-everybody-else/201210/the-pseudoscience-race-differences-in-penis-size)** > > A study claims to have found evidence that there are differences in penis length of men from different races. The data are unscientific and should be disregarded. > [@](#): > > Lynn’s (2013) proposal is based on the theories of the late J. Philippe Rushton. As noted in a previous article, Rushton, a notorious advocate of race realism, proposed that the major races can be sorted into a human hierarchy based on their supposed reproductive strategies. According to Rushton’s r-K life history theory, there are two main reproductive strategies forming ends of a continuum. The r-strategy involves large numbers of offspring with minimal investment, whereas the K-strategy involves fewer offspring and greater investment. According to Rushton, Africans are the most r-selected whereas Asians are the most K-selected, and Europeans are somewhere in between, although closer to Asians than Africans. Rushton claimed that these two reproductive strategies were associated with a whole suite of mental and physical characteristics including brain size, intelligence, criminality, and of course penis length. According to this theory, African men have the smallest brains and the largest penises, whereas Asian men are the opposite. This has been described as a ‘Goldilocks’ theory of race, in which European men are ‘just right’ having a combination of high intelligence and a reasonable genital endowment. > > Rushton responded to criticisms of his racist theories by arguing that scientific theories should be judged on the merits of their evidence. Unfortunately for him, it is on scientific grounds that his theories fall apart (Weizmann, Wiener, Wiesenthal, & Ziegler, 1990). Weizmann et al. have argued that Rushton’s assignment of particular traits to either r or K strategies is completely arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/123 "2013-10-25T15:52:46Z")
> [@bita\_malt](#): > > If you want to know more about this controversy, please just google it and look it up yourself. Scientifically, there’s no controversy. He and his research have been discredited and should be on the dust bin of history. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/124 "2013-10-25T16:27:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do not call other posters trolls in this forum, even obliquely. > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] I wasn’t accusing him of being a troll, I just think that with his ugly belief system he probably lives someplace subterranean, and moist. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/125 "2013-10-25T17:09:20Z")
It seems amazing to me that someone could conduct a test, be presented with the obviously absurd conclusions inevitable from the results that even a child could see, and still think that the problem does not lie with the test. It would be like conduct a test on a field full of equines and finding them to be unicorns, and then acting dismayed when people don’t believe me that they can fly. Literacy is a relatively recent development on society, and universal literacy even more so. Were all our ancestors on this same supposed level? Or does literacy magically raise your IQ? If so, then I think we’ve found a giant hole on the test. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/126 "2013-10-25T17:22:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do not call other posters trolls in this forum, even obliquely. Troglodyte, not troll. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/127 "2013-10-25T20:00:31Z")
Y’know it’s amazing how often Rushton gets cited in these threads and just how common they are. Rushton also wrote a lot about the sexual inadequacies of white males and about how most white males had extremely small penines. Why is it we never have any of the scientific racists\* start threads wondering why white men have such small penises? \*. Not using the term as an insult just that the term “scientific racism” is such beliefs are denoted in academia. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/128 "2013-10-25T20:18:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Y’know it’s amazing how often Rushton gets cited in these threads and just how common they are. > > Rushton also wrote a lot about the sexual inadequacies of white males and about how most white males had extremely small penines. > > Why is it we never have any of the scientific racists\* start threads wondering why white men have such small penises? > > \*. Not using the term as an insult just that the term “scientific racism” is such beliefs are denoted in academia. Do you have a cite for this? What I recall is that Rushton did cite studies suggesting differences in penis size, and iirc (I may not) some sort of thing about high v low procreation levels or drives or something. I haven’t read all of his main works, but to dismiss it as others do here as being “totally discredited” or whatever, is nonsense. Rushton was a decent, reasonably thorough, and careful researcher. His conclusions drew a great deal of ire, but I’d like to see some specific cites here for counter studies rather than simply promoting the idea he was discredited. There are opinions on both sides of the fence as to whether or not populations differ in intellect and other skillsets because of environment or nature. There are almost no studies of which I am aware showing that SIRE groups (for example) are equivalent at anything, be it physiology, gene frequencies, standardized scoring given similar opportunity, or equivalent outcomes for practical successes such as sports. Rushton’s fundamental conclusion, based on his research, was that these differences are genetic. To paint this conclusion as discredited or bullshit is simply to get sucked into rhetoric. While his conclusion may be distasteful, or unpopular, or even unkind, it has not been scientifically discredited. In the end, science will win the day, so the rhetoric fights will recede. As others here are probably aware, I’m betting on genes as the most fundamental driver for the difference in the observed differences among SIRE populations given similar maximal nurturing opportunity. I await a single study suggesting Rushton’s conclusion is scientifically wrong. Simply quoting opinions that his research sucks is not very persuasive. The way to disprove a quack is to do alternate studies that prove the opposite conclusion. Where are they? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/129 "2013-10-25T20:23:51Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Rushton was a decent, reasonably thorough, and careful researcher. Um… > [@bita\_malt](#): > > Well, according to him, he gave an IQ test once to an entire hall filled with black and white university students in South Africa. The room was air conditioned and very comfortable. The students were allowed to take as long as they wanted. And the test was based on culture free Raven Progressive Matrices. At the end of it, he said, the black students scored an average of 85. He then extrapolated that the average IQ of the larger black population must be 70 since university students typically have average IQs that are 15 points higher than the average population. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/130 "2013-10-25T20:25:35Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Rushton’s fundamental conclusion, based on his research, was that these differences are genetic. To paint this conclusion as discredited or bullshit is simply to get sucked into rhetoric. While his conclusion may be distasteful, or unpopular, or even unkind, it has not been scientifically discredited. When Psychology Today and others report that “it is on scientific grounds that his theories fall apart” it is really silly to claim that it was not discredited. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/131 "2013-10-25T20:36:03Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I wasn’t accusing him of being a troll, I just think that with his ugly belief system he probably lives someplace subterranean, and moist. Tweet! That’s enough. Both calling other posters trolls or directly insulting them is forbidden. Don’t do it - or anything close to it - again. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/132 "2013-10-25T20:38:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Troglodyte, not troll. What part of don’t do this are we unclear on? Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/133 "2013-10-25T21:11:03Z")
> [@Jonathan Chains](#): > > What part of don’t do this are we unclear on? > > Warning issued. Um, begging your pardon but I wasn’t calling anyone either a troglodyte \*or \*a troll, and I’d like that warning rolled back if you please. I was referring to the fact that **rogerbox** ’s “oblique” post, which you warned him about over “don’t call people trolls”, actually implied that the other poster was a troglodyte (i.e. a being that lives in moist caves) rather than a troll (a being that lives under bridges). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/134 "2013-10-25T21:30:00Z")
You know what? I will roll that back. But I hope you realize that wading into a warning or mod note with ‘helpful’ information is extremely unwise and I advise you to avoid such in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/135 "2013-10-25T21:36:05Z")
Yup. I also did realize my post was ambiguous in retrospect, so there you go. Anyway, thanks ! Shutting up now. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/136 "2013-10-25T21:38:18Z")
> **[Jean-Philippe Rushton](https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/jean-philippe-rushton/)** > > Jean-Philippe Rushton is a psychology professor, author of a handful of academic tomes and numerous articles, and a onetime fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation — and probably the most important race scientist at work today. > [@](#): > > officials did reprimand him twice for carrying out research on human subjects in 1988 without required prior approval. In the first incident, Rushton surveyed first-year psychology students, asking questions about penis length, distance of ejaculation, and number of sex partners. In the second, **he surveyed customers at a Toronto shopping mall, paying 50 white people, 50 black people and 50 Asians five dollars apiece to answer questions about their sexual habits**. Decent? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/137 "2013-10-25T22:44:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s indicative that the average citizen isn’t borderline mentally disabled. Well what is the minimum average IQ necessary for a society which can support the thinkers you described? > [@](#): > > Do you participate in commerce? It requires creating and following schedules, counting, budgeting, learning complex tasks and performing them accurately, planning for the future, adapting to rapid unanticipated changes, and many other skills at which the mentally disabled struggle. No it doesn’t. Participating in commerce can be as simple as slapping down two dollars for a slice of pizza and a bottle of Coke. > [@](#): > > It certainly could, but there’s plenty of written literature in that article. What language is it in? > [@](#): > > Maybe you’re simply not aware of how low an IQ of 70 is. Such a person is _not_ “fairly ordinary”, and their disability becomes obvious within moments of speaking with them. What specifically would one notice? > [@](#): > > All three points above are correct. What is your definition of “fairly ordinary”? ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/138 "2013-10-25T23:46:01Z")
Whites and Asians have a genetic mutation (that affects the brain) believed to have arisen about 5000 BC. It appears to have spread relatively quickly thru Eurasia, followed by the formation of city-states and advanced culture. It’s possible that this is a dominant gene, explaining its rapid spread, and also why having a white parentage increases the I.Q. of African-Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/139 "2013-10-25T23:49:42Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Whites and Asians have a genetic mutation (that affects the brain) believed to have arisen about 5000 BC. It appears to have spread relatively quickly thru Eurasia, followed by the formation of city-states and advanced culture. It’s possible that this is a dominant gene, explaining its rapid spread, and also why having a white parentage increases the I.Q. of African-Americans. There is no evidence for this. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/140 "2013-10-26T00:01:22Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Whites and Asians have a genetic mutation (that affects the brain) believed to have arisen about 5000 BC. It appears to have spread relatively quickly thru Eurasia, followed by the formation of city-states and advanced culture. It’s possible that this is a dominant gene, explaining its rapid spread, and also why having a white parentage increases the I.Q. of African-Americans. May we see the cite you got that claim from? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=8)