# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/141 "2013-10-26T00:11:41Z")
One of the mutated genes, called microcephalin, began its swift spread among human ancestors about 37,000 years ago, a period marked by a creative explosion in music, art, religious expression and tool-making. The other gene, ASPM (abnormal spindle-like microcephaly-associated), arose only about 5,800 years ago, right around the time of writing and the first civilization in Mesopotamia, which dates to 7000 B.C. [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140\_1\_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140_1_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/142 "2013-10-26T00:23:17Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > One of the mutated genes, called microcephalin, began its swift spread among human ancestors about 37,000 years ago, a period marked by a creative explosion in music, art, religious expression and tool-making. > > The other gene, ASPM (abnormal spindle-like microcephaly-associated), arose only about 5,800 years ago, right around the time of writing and the first civilization in Mesopotamia, which dates to 7000 B.C. > [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140\_1\_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140_1_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin) That link says nothing about any link between race and intelligence. It doesn’t support your statement at all. And 5800 years ago was around 3800 BC, which does not date to 7000 BC. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/143 "2013-10-26T00:25:12Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > One of the mutated genes, called microcephalin, began its swift spread among human ancestors about 37,000 years ago, a period marked by a creative explosion in music, art, religious expression and tool-making. > > The other gene, ASPM (abnormal spindle-like microcephaly-associated), arose only about 5,800 years ago, right around the time of writing and the first civilization in Mesopotamia, which dates to 7000 B.C. > [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140\_1\_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-09-09/news/0509090140_1_bruce-lahn-mutation-microcephalin) Sorry, but your cite doesn’t link any mutation to civilization. You did that. It also doesn’t link any specific gene to intelligence levels. In fact, it says: > [@](#): > > “There are genetic differences that make each of us unique,” Wray said. "But there’s no way for you to look at a single gene and say `OK, you’ve got this mutation, you’re smarter than someone else.’ Were you one of the scientists who participated in this study, and you’re adding in information the article you linked to missed? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/144 "2013-10-26T00:30:36Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > It’s possible that this is a dominant gene, explaining its rapid spread, and also why having a white parentage increases the I.Q. of African-Americans. Genetics doesn’t actually work that way. It’s a nice oversimplification for teaching schoolchildren, though. You want to be very careful with oversimplification on anything more complicated. Also, while the study posits a possible link to intelligence, it doesn’t really demonstrate it. Nor does it really show, in any meaningful statistical way, a correlation to IQ or intelligence. Mainly, it’s guessing at a link. The actual results were “this gene is found mostly in people from _this_ part of the world and not found in people from _this_ part of the world”. The rest is based on correlation and not any direct evidence. Basically, it’s a big “well, this _could_ explain things” kind of study. Nice, in its own way, but could also end up being a shaggy dog story. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/145 "2013-10-26T00:40:47Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? What I recall is that Rushton did cite studies suggesting differences in penis size, . . . Yeah. he claimed that the World Health Organization ordered condoms in three sizes, large for blacks, medium for whites, and small for Asians. Unfortunately for his claim, there were only two condom sizes produced and the organization never ordered any “for” any particular group. [He simply lied.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13623282#post13623282) ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/146 "2013-10-26T00:44:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That link says nothing about any link between race and intelligence. It doesn’t support your statement at all. And 5800 years ago was around 3800 BC, which does not date to 7000 BC. It STATES that their culture expanded after 3800 BC, and writing and civilization began then. Evidence of earlier culture goes back at least til 7000 BC, but it was unchanged for thousands of years until said brain mutation. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/147 "2013-10-26T00:45:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well what is the minimum average IQ necessary for a society which can support the thinkers you described? It’s north of “mentally disabled”. > [@brazil84](#): > > No it doesn’t. Participating in commerce can be as simple as slapping down two dollars for a slice of pizza and a bottle of Coke. I’m not sensing a lot of good faith coming from you. Do you really think that about half of all Africans either don’t participate in commerce at all, that it’s limited to single transactions, or that people with an IQ of 70 can handle commerce, or what? Again I suspect you have no idea what an IQ of 70 entails. [Here’s](http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mild+mental+retardation) some information: > [@](#): > > Approximately 85% of the mentally retarded population is in the mildly retarded category. Their IQ score ranges from 50-75, and they can often acquire academic skills up to the 6th grade level. They can become fairly self-sufficient and in some cases live independently, with community and social support. Does that sound like the continent of Africa? They can, in “some cases”, live independent lives, and be “fairly” self sufficient, with extensive support? > [@brazil84](#): > > What language is it in? African. :rolleyes: Are you serious with this? You think a whole continent’s literature would be in a single language? There is no continent of which that is true. It’s in many languages: English, French, Arabic, Fula, Songhai, Swahili… > [@brazil84](#): > > What specifically would one notice? Limited vocabulary, difficulty grasping abstract concepts, poor language and social skills, very poor memory, and an inability to sustain attention to a task, for a start. > [@brazil84](#): > > What is your definition of “fairly ordinary”? Typical examples of the human race. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/148 "2013-10-26T01:01:10Z")
A new allele (version) of ASPM appeared sometime between 14,100 and 500 years ago with a mean estimate of 5,800 years ago. The new allele has a frequency of about 50% in populations of the Middle East and Europe, it is less frequent in East Asia, and has low frequencies among Sub-Saharan African populations.[6] It is also found with an unusually high percentage among the people of Papua New Guinea, with a 59.4% occurrence.[7] The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities.[8] Currently, two alleles of this gene exist: the older (pre-5,800 years ago) and the newer (post-5,800 years ago). About 10% of humans have two copies of the new ASPM allele, while about 50% have two copies of the old allele. The other 40% of humans have one copy of each. Of those with an instance of the new allele, 50% of them are an identical copy[9] suggesting a highly rapid spread from the original mutation. According to a hypothesis called a “selective sweep”, the rapid spread of a mutation (such as the new ASPM) through the population indicates that the mutation is somehow advantageous to the individual.[7][10] Testing the IQ of those with and without new ASPM allele has shown no difference in average IQ, providing no evidence to support the notion that the gene increases intelligence.[10][11][12] However statistical analysis has shown that the older forms of the gene are found more heavily in populations that speak tonal languages like Chinese or many Sub-Saharan African langu ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/149 "2013-10-26T01:09:20Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Testing the IQ of those with and without new ASPM allele has shown no difference in average IQ, providing no evidence to support the notion that the gene increases intelligence.[10][11][12] However statistical analysis has shown that the older forms of the gene are found more heavily in populations that speak tonal languages like Chinese or many Sub-Saharan African langu First of all, it looks like you quoted something without attribution. Was it wikipedia, in which case no harm no foul. Secondly, it’s now unclear if you are trying to persuade us that this new mutation is or is not a cause of difference in intelligence levels in different populations. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/150 "2013-10-26T01:22:27Z")
The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities. If not affecting intelligence, it seems to have had a huge impact on those populations it spread through. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/151 "2013-10-26T01:24:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > What specifically would one notice? From: [Intellectual disability - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability) [ul] [li]Delays in oral language development[/li][li]Deficits in memory skills[/li][li]Difficulty learning social rules[/li][li]Difficulty with problem solving skills[/li][li]Delays in the development of adaptive behaviors such as self-help or self-care skills[/li][li]Lack of social inhibitors[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/152 "2013-10-26T01:25:11Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities. > If not affecting intelligence, it seems to have had a huge impact on those populations it spread through. There are probably a thousand things that correlate with that. But did any cause it? Besides, the “spread” of agriculture is nothing compared to the invention of agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/153 "2013-10-26T01:35:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Yeah. he claimed that the World Health Organization ordered condoms in three sizes, large for blacks, medium for whites, and small for Asians. Unfortunately for his claim, there were only two condom sizes produced and the organization never ordered any “for” any particular group. [He simply lied.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13623282#post13623282) To add to what you’re saying he was also disciplined by the university he was working for because he went to one of the local malls to conduct "research " and started asking people questions like “how large is your penis when erect”, “how far can you ejackulate(sp)” and “how many sexual partners have you had in the past two years”. After being disciplined he went on a number of daytime American TV shows like Rikki Lake and claimed he didn’t think blacks were inferior to whites because they had larger penises and were more sexually potent. As I said, I’ve always found it curious that none of the scientific racists who cite him open up threads about the anatomical inferiority of white males. I wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/154 "2013-10-26T01:39:10Z")
Sub-Saharan peoples , until just a few centuries ago, had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary agriculture. Europe was building railroads of steel while stone was still the primary material in use in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/155 "2013-10-26T01:43:18Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities. > If not affecting intelligence, it seems to have had a huge impact on those populations it spread through. Correlation does not imply causation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/156 "2013-10-26T01:52:36Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Sub-Saharan peoples , until just a few centuries ago, had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary agriculture. Europe was building railroads of steel while stone was still the primary material in use in Africa. Technology tells us nothing about the genetics of intelligence. Many technological advancements originated in Africa- including the [invention of steel by the Haya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haya_people#Archeological_discoveries) (in modern day Tanzania) centuries before it was made in Europe. The black civilization of Kush conqured Egypt and ruled for a century. And there were cities in Africa, such as Great Zimbabwe, more than a few centuries ago. There were groups in all continents and of all skin colors that had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary technology. None of this tells us anything about any genetic tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/157 "2013-10-26T01:54:56Z")
There is evidence of disparate outcomes- such as differing test scores, crime statistics, or other differences between various populations. Some have suggested that the best explanation for these disparate outcomes is a genetic explanation- that some groups have genetic tendencies towards higher or lower intelligence or aggression, for example. There is zero evidence for this genetic explanation- no such genes have been found. For now, it’s just an unsupported hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/158 "2013-10-26T02:00:23Z")
Archaeologist Peter Schmidt discovered through a literalist combination of archaeology and oral tradition that the Haya had been forging steel for around 2000 years. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/159 "2013-10-26T02:05:00Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Archaeologist Peter Schmidt discovered through a literalist combination of archaeology and oral tradition that the Haya had been forging steel for around 2000 years. > Wow. From the link: “Later investigation of the land yielded 13 other furnaces similar in design to the re-creation set up by the elders. This process is very similar to open hearth furnace steelmaking. These furnaces were carbon-dated and were found to be as old as 2000 years. Steel of similar quality did not appear in Europe until several centuries later.” Wow indeed. Those brilliant, crafty Haya. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/160 "2013-10-26T02:09:53Z")
I’ve brought up this Haya-as-steelmakers research multiple times before, and it always seems to perplex the “black-people-are-inferior” crowd – to the point that they just completely deny it. It’s as if they believe that there’s some genetic factor that prevents every single individual black person from being potentially a brilliant inventor/engineer/entrepeneur/etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=9)