# From a purely genetic standpoint, how does it make sense that the average IQ of African Ams is 85? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041 "2013-10-23T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/161 "2013-10-26T02:12:36Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Sub-Saharan peoples , until just a few centuries ago, had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary agriculture. Europe was building railroads of steel while stone was still the primary material in use in Africa. Europeans, until a few more centuries ago, had no writing and a similar level of agriculture. So what? Given an age of _Homo Sapiens_ of around 300,000 years, all of humanity had no writing and no agriculture for about 98% of its existence. Trying to make a point about “advancement” when you are quibbling over whether groups achieved a particular level after 98% of human history or 99% of human history or even 99.7% of human history when the “less advanced” groups are capable of mastering the same levels of advancement as soon as they are exposed to new technologies is silly and demonstrates an ignorance of history far more than it identifies the intellectual capacities of any group. Based on your attempt at a point, Egyptians are far more advanced than, say Germans, having established a written language over a thousand years prior to those Germans–who never invented such a language, having borrowed theirs from the Romans who borrowed from the Etruscans and Greeks who borrowed from the Phoenicians and so on. Few peoples or societies invented much in the way of writing, agriculture, or technology. Everyone else stole it or had it thrust upon them. Claiming that a group is less capable because they were more distant than other groups from the actual point of origin of any of those inventions is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/162 "2013-10-26T02:15:51Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Sub-Saharan peoples , until just a few centuries ago, had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary agriculture. Europe was building railroads of steel while stone was still the primary material in use in Africa. The Kingdom of Nubia was a thriving trade empire back when Glorious Rome was still a bunch of sheep fuckers squatting the Capitoline - they even built pyramids before the Egyptians co-opted the idea. The people of Benin built the largest man-made structure on the face of the Earth (before or since. Yes, it even dwarfed the Great Wall of China). Mansa Musa I of Mali was so stinking rich and so generous with his bling, his pilgrimage to Mecca caused a devaluation of gold - it devastated the economy of the entire Middle East for decades. That’s just off the top of my head, and I know next to nothing about African history. To say you are woefully ignorant of that which you speak is akin to saying the Pacific is large-ish and somewhat wet. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/163 "2013-10-26T02:19:53Z")
I am only talking brain-wise here: Why is it commonly accepted that schizophrenia, depression, addiction, alcoholism, ADD and sociopathic behavior are genetically based, and can be passed down to offspring. All related to genes. But even though smart parents continue to produce smart children, and marginally intelligent people have barely intelligent offspring, many refuse to accept that intelligence could have anything to do with parentage (genetics). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/164 "2013-10-26T02:24:58Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > I am only talking brain-wise here: Why is it commonly accepted that schizophrenia, depression, addiction, alcoholism, ADD and sociopathic behavior are genetically based, and can be passed down to offspring. All related to genes. But even though smart parents continue to produce smart children, and marginally intelligent people have barely intelligent offspring, many refuse to accept that intelligence could have anything to do with parentage (genetics). Excellent straw man. No one here has suggested that intelligence has nothing to do with genetics. But there is no evidence that some populations/races/ethnicities have higher or lower genetic tendencies towards intelligence than others. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/165 "2013-10-26T02:26:12Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities. > If not affecting intelligence, it seems to have had a huge impact on those populations it spread through. Wow, the ease/speed/persistence that highly speculative, race-tinged, genetic deterministic assumptions are disseminated (and held up as fact) in popular culture, shows to me the strong need for some [basic regulatory guidelines in the ethics of such claims](http://genomebiology.com/2008/9/7/404). Long story short, back in 2005 [two](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/309/5741/1717) [papers](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/309/5741/1720) were published by Bruce Lahn’s team that claimed that two variants of microcephalin and ASPM (found predominantly in Eurasian opposed to West African populations) have been “strongly selected” and then made grasping tentative links toward brain function and landmarks of human development (“it possibly drove humans to learn writing, civilization, etc”). Much like **CraterLayer** is still doing today, [many racialists](http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/HumanSciences/specterofdifference.html) held this speculative conjure by Lahn as scientific proof specifically for the mental inferiority of the “Black race”. However by 2007 no follow up studies supported the many claims that these variants [underwent positive](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/316/5823/370.2.full) [recent selection](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/317/5841/1036.1) nor [regulated brain size](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17251122)/[intelligence](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17220170). But “the damage” can said to already have been done as we can see people still citing the original paper in support of the original speculative claims. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/166 "2013-10-26T02:26:48Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > I am only talking brain-wise here: Why is it commonly accepted that schizophrenia, depression, addiction, alcoholism, ADD and sociopathic behavior are genetically based, and can be passed down to offspring. All related to genes. But even though smart parents continue to produce smart children, and marginally intelligent people have barely intelligent offspring, many refuse to accept that intelligence could have anything to do with parentage (genetics). No one here is saying that intelligence isn’t heritable. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/167 "2013-10-26T02:30:48Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Sub-Saharan peoples , until just a few centuries ago, had no writing, no cities, and only rudimentary agriculture. Europe was building railroads of steel while stone was still the primary material in use in Africa. You are simply in the need of a basic history lesson. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/168 "2013-10-26T02:32:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Excellent straw man. No one here has suggested that intelligence has nothing to do with genetics. But there is no evidence that some populations/races/ethnicities have higher or lower genetic tendencies towards intelligence than others. Then let’s do a study on this. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/169 "2013-10-26T02:34:29Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You are simply in the need of a basic history lesson. Then educate me. I promise not to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/170 "2013-10-26T02:38:45Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Then let’s do a study on this. Fine. Do some research and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/171 "2013-10-26T02:53:49Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > A new allele (version) of ASPM appeared sometime between 14,100 and 500 years ago with a mean estimate of 5,800 years ago. The new allele has a frequency of about 50% in populations of the Middle East and Europe, it is less frequent in East Asia, and has low frequencies among Sub-Saharan African populations.[6] It is also found with an unusually high percentage among the people of Papua New Guinea, with a 59.4% occurrence.[7] > > The mean estimated age of the ASPM allele of 5,800 years ago, roughly correlates with the development of written language, spread of agriculture and development of cities.[8] Currently, two alleles of this gene exist: the older (pre-5,800 years ago) and the newer (post-5,800 years ago). About 10% of humans have two copies of the new ASPM allele, while about 50% have two copies of the old allele. The other 40% of humans have one copy of each. Of those with an instance of the new allele, 50% of them are an identical copy[9] suggesting a highly rapid spread from the original mutation. According to a hypothesis called a “selective sweep”, the rapid spread of a mutation (such as the new ASPM) through the population indicates that the mutation is somehow advantageous to the individual.[7][10] > > Testing the IQ of those with and without new ASPM allele has shown no difference in average IQ, providing no evidence to support the notion that the gene increases intelligence.[10][11][12] However statistical analysis has shown that the older forms of the gene are found more heavily in populations that speak tonal languages like Chinese or many Sub-Saharan African langu The frequency was found to be low among the Han Chinese, and quite high among the peoples of New Guinea. Do you see how this is a problem for your thesis? ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/172 "2013-10-26T02:57:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fine. Do some research and get back to us. We could start with Asian, White, Hispanic and Black students comparative class rankings, when given the same opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/173 "2013-10-26T03:02:16Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The frequency was found to be low among the Han Chinese, and quite high among the peoples of New Guinea. Do you see how this is a problem for your thesis? You mean the filthy degenerates who invented trivialities like gunpowder and a thriving bureaucracy with unheard of levels of literacy and social complexity , vs. the luminaries that brought the world the [penis gourd](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koteka)? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/174 "2013-10-26T03:08:04Z")
No, let’s go back to “sub-Saharan Africa had no cities.” That one was fun. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/175 "2013-10-26T03:09:34Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The frequency was found to be low among the Han Chinese, and quite high among the peoples of New Guinea. Do you see how this is a problem for your thesis? For 2500 years the Chinese people have been subjugated by either invaders or by their elite. Til this day. The vast majority still live as peasants. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/176 "2013-10-26T03:14:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > No, let’s go back to “sub-Saharan Africa had no cities.” That one was fun. Well, the Arab slave traders did create some cities like Timbuktu. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/177 "2013-10-26T03:17:24Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > We could start with Asian, White, Hispanic and Black students comparative class rankings, when given the same opportunities. Okay. I’ll give you and your family, friends, and neighbors the same opportunities. It’ll take a while to get underway, and it’s gonna be awful ugly. In order for the experiment to have any value, it’ll have to run for at least a century. Y’all are down for it, right?😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/178 "2013-10-26T03:17:36Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > For 2500 years the Chinese people have been subjugated by either invaders or by their elite. Til this day. The vast majority still live as peasants. First of all, this is no longer true-- [50% of Chinese now live in urban areas.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/9020486/Chinas-urban-population-exceeds-rural-for-first-time-ever.html) How many debunked claims are you going to make before admitting you are mistaken? Secondly, do you have any evidence that these “Chinese peasants” have less intelligence than their urban cousins? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/179 "2013-10-26T03:32:08Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > We could start with Asian, White, Hispanic and Black students comparative class rankings, when given the same opportunities. Errr… you do realize that hispanics can be white, black or neither. If race really were useful as biological term it certainly wouldn’t apply to Hispanics. If you disagree please explain to me why you think this guy [http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17iszeethy0dnjpg/original.jpg](http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17iszeethy0dnjpg/original.jpg) and this girl [http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/\_\_cb20130127055515/disney/images/3/35/Alexis\_Bledel.jpg](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130127055515/disney/images/3/35/Alexis_Bledel.jpg) are of the same “race”. Also please explain why you think the girl shouldn’t be classified as “white” and the guy shouldn’t be classified as “black” from a biological point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041/180 "2013-10-26T03:35:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You mean the filthy degenerates who invented trivialities like gunpowder and a thriving bureaucracy with unheard of levels of literacy and social complexity , vs. the luminaries that brought the world the [penis gourd](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koteka)? Yes. Not that there’s anything wrong with penis gourds. As Jared Diamond points out, New Guineans are exceptionally competent in their environment. Errors in judgement or pattern recognition in the jungles of New Guinea are likely to result in early death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-a-purely-genetic-standpoint-how-does-it-make-sense-that-the-average-iq-of-african-ams-is-85/672041.md?page=10)