# From "Shock and Awe" to Aw, Shit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764 "2005-05-20T16:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/1 "2005-05-20T16:51:44Z")
[This story](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/11684308.htm) from the New York Times reprinted in the San Jose Mercury News confirms what some of us said about this damn war from the beginning. We are likely to be embroiled in Iraq as long as we were in Viet Nam, and it will ultimately cost more, in money, resources and good will if not in American lives. When the fight against the insergency drags on, eventually even the people who now support it will tire of it. And America won’t be one whit safer or more free. If anything, we will have created more enemies and greater threats to our security than before. > [@](#): > > One senior officer suggested Wednesday that U.S. military involvement could last "many years.’’ As expected, President Bush immediately tried to spin it. > [@](#): > > "No nation in history has made the transition from tyranny to a free society without setbacks and false starts,’’ Bush told the International Republican Institute. "What separates those nations that succeed from those that falter is their progress in establishing free institutions.’’ In your campaigning you promised no nation building, remember, Mr. President? This was supposed to be about our security. Anybody here feel more secure? What’s that? I didn’t hear you. Okay, I’ve got the rant out for a little while. I solicit support from liberal and libertarian colleagues and await the pile-on from the Bushistas. I TOLD YOU SO! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/2 "2005-05-20T17:10:36Z")
You certainly have my support. Troops from Iraq should be withdrawn immediately. Right now. Along with troops from all the other more than one hundred nations where they are stationed. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/3 "2005-05-20T17:18:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Troops from Iraq should be withdrawn immediately. Right now. I’m not so sure that’s such a good idea. I agree that we should never have gone in in the first place, but how can we walk away from the mess we’ve created? To leave now would be to guarantee putting a warlord in power. We’d just end up with Saddam version 2.0. (Then again, we won’t accomplish much by staying in, either. We’re just plain fucked.) About the comparisons to Viet Nam–It was funny (in a sad and pathetic way) how one or two years ago apologists were coming up with all sorts of reasons why Iraq is nothing like 'Nam. Here are a few samples of what it seems they came up with: 1. It’s spelled differently. 2. Iraq is not in East Asia. 3. We’re not in Iraq to fight Communism 4. USA! USA! 5. It’s still spelled differently ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/4 "2005-05-20T17:48:51Z")
As Colin Powell might say, “You broke it, you bought it”. We made the mess. We are then responsible for fixing it. I was against the “war of liberation” from the start. I am in principle against “nation building”. However, we need to fix the mess we created, not cut and run because it is now “politically inconvenient”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/5 "2005-05-20T18:06:59Z")
Well, that’s the whole nub, isn’t it? I have considerable sympathy for that point of view, our moral responsibility and all that. Six months ago I said “We’re stuck with it, we fucked up, we gotta pay.” I am becoming increasingly uncertain about that. Its starting to look like our very presence is more of a hindrance than a help, but if we wait for certainty, for resolved clarity, we will wait forever. All our sources of information have agenda, they all want something, and they all want us to make it happen. No doubt Ahmed Chalabi is still waiting for us to call him and advise that, as of 8 am tomorrow, he is the new Maximum Leader. If we “cut and run”, evil men will use that to their advantage. If we stay and flounder about like a “pitiful helpless giant”, we may be sacrificing our own best and brightest needlessly, pointlessly, and hence, obscenely. And offering aid and comfort to a different set of evil men with a different agenda. Our enemies are exploiting our presence in Iraq for their own purposes. With grave reluctance, I am coming to the conclusion that we should get the hell out of BaghDodge, ASAP. The consequences will be dire…_probably_. And there’s the rub, the yawning chasm of ignorance. Hell, its entirely possible that our leaving would be an excellent move, there’s no way of knowing! Damn sure know this, though…if we split, the Tighty Rightys will be in a position to swear on a stack that they were just _this close_ to succeeding, but those wimpy liberals chickened out, and its all their fault, etc., etc. I would hope that such an absurd proposition would have no traction. Recent evidence indicates otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/6 "2005-05-20T18:11:26Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > However, we need to fix the mess we created, not cut and run because it is now “politically inconvenient”. I agree with you that we can’t just drop it now. I was just pointing out that the S.O.B. (son of Barbara) got us into this mess against the protests of a great many people who could see from the get-go where this thing would get-gone. I’m afraid that our resources, political, monitary and human, are going to be squandered now, and it’s too late to do anything about it. To those of you who have lost loved ones in Iraq, I have no anger against them. I honor them for doing what they think is right and mourn with you their loss. My anger is directed at the leadership that put them there and called for their sacrifice in the first place based on political expediency and outright lies. The President and his henchmen (and women) have almost completely stopped referring to the “fighting terrorism and WMD” lies that got us into this mess in the first place and rely now on the American sense of duty and pity of oppressed peoples to keep us there. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/7 "2005-05-20T19:03:37Z")
Why do you hate America, **DesertGeezer**? And just think: if things are going bad with Bush in office, just think what hell it would be if we’d changed horses halfway through the war. Thank God we don’t have someone with military experience making the ultimate calls on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/8 "2005-05-20T19:07:47Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Why do you hate America, **DesertGeezer**? > > And just think: if things are going bad with Bush in office, just think what hell it would be if we’d changed horses halfway through the war. Thank God we don’t have someone with military experience making the ultimate calls on this one. At least he Stayed The Course™! What do you want to do, put some LiberalCommieBoatDriver in the desert? Hah! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/9 "2005-05-20T19:08:13Z")
My reasons for why we should leave sooner rather than later are based on history: by staying so long in the pit that was Vietnam it caused the US to have no political or emotional will to stop Polpot an the killing fields. By leaving sooner we will see how things shape up and leave trip wires (treaties to not develop threats against the USA (the main reason why we were supposed to be there) threatening bombings to groups attempting genocide) those trip wires then will for sure generate a will to do then the right thing, as it is turning out, there will be another sad thing in common with Vietnam: when eventually we have to go, we will be so disgusted by it that we will not prevent the likely bloodbath to follow. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/10 "2005-05-20T19:10:13Z")
I say we borrow a page from [Bill Maher’s New Rules](http://www.hbo.com/billmaher/new_rules/) – bring the troops home, and send out all those folks who supported the war to take their place. > [@](#): > > Now, I know you’re thinking, but, Bill, I already do my part with the “Support Our Troops” magnet I have on my Chevy Tahoe. How much more can one man give? Well, here’s an intriguing economic indicator. It’s been over a year since they graduated, but neither of the Bush twins has been able to find work. Why don’t they sign up? Do they hate America or just freedom in general? > > And that goes for everybody who helped sell this war. You’ve got to go first. Brooks and Dunn, drop your cocks and grab your socks! Ann Coulter, darling, trust me, you will love the Army. You think you make up shit! > > Curt Schilling, b-bye! You ended the curse on Boston. Good. Let’s try your luck in Fallouja. Oh, and that Republican Baldwin brother, he’s got to go so that Ted Nugent has someone to frag. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/11 "2005-05-20T20:33:31Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Why do you hate America, **DesertGeezer**? This kind of moron response is exactly the reason I put this in the pit instead of GD. So **Ex(low)Calibre**, you think anyone who doesn’t share your vision hates America? Fuck you and the pig you rode in on! I love America apparently more than you do, because I respect the right of other Americans to disagree with me, even those like you who would not afford me the same right. I do not, as you do, suggest they are traitors or America haters if they differ from me. Or did you miss the whole “freedom of speech” thing in civics class? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/12 "2005-05-20T20:34:47Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I say we borrow a page from [Bill Maher’s New Rules](http://www.hbo.com/billmaher/new_rules/) – bring the troops home, and send out all those folks who supported the war to take their place. That would be an excellent (and very good) rule. We can borrow from the “romantic” notion of the ancient kings and warlords leading their armies into battle. Anyone who wants to start a war would be on the hook to prove that they really really really … really believe in what they are doing. They would have to see first hand the results of their choice. If they want to share in the “glory” then let them share in the risk. A side benefit would be the added incentive to make sure their troops are adequately prepared and equipped. If this rule really became law, I bet Rove, Wolfy, Cheney, Bush and many many other chickenhawks would feel a sudden need to retire. I think the catchphrase would be “having the courage of your convictions”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/13 "2005-05-20T20:38:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > All our sources of information have agenda Yeah, but a good dose of penicillin can clear that right up. ~escapes~ ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/14 "2005-05-20T20:47:33Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This kind of moron response is exactly the reason I put this in the pit instead of GD. So **Ex(low)Calibre**, you think anyone who doesn’t share your vision hates America? Fuck you and the pig you rode in on! I love America apparently more than you do, because I respect the right of other Americans to disagree with me, even those like you who would not afford me the same right. I do not, as you do, suggest they are traitors or America haters if they differ from me. Or did you miss the whole “freedom of speech” thing in civics class? :rolleyes: dunno about **Excalibre’s** motives, but I can attest to the fact that the “why do you hate America” line has become a standard response from the liberals here to OP’s like yours. Kinda a sarcastic “yea, and the neocons would respond thusly” sort of thing, so I suspect you got wooshed here. wrt to the OP itself. I recall getting into debates way back then and having the neocons assure me that the WoMD **were** there, we had no choice and anyhow, it’d all be over in a few days withonly a few casualties on our end, parades, cheering, toppling of statues, a few more weeks of mopping up the oil spills then on to glory. At the time, I recall thinking “who believes this shit?” and even maybe asking it out loud. STM that many who assured me that I was totally wrong about the WoMD, totally wrong about my concern wrt invading Iraq, that it’d be a mess-o-potamia (nods at Jon Stewart), etc, still seem pretty fucking sure of their stance today. Had I been so totally butt ass wrong as some of those folks, I’d have been doing more than a bit of soul searching, etc. Remember the guy who stated at the outset that it’d cost 3 billion and was slapped down pronto? He was an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/15 "2005-05-20T21:19:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You certainly have my support. Troops from Iraq should be withdrawn immediately. Right now. Along with troops from all the other more than one hundred nations where they are stationed. Can you provide a cite for the 100 other nations with troops there? Or are you saying that since it is possible to imagine that they exhist then it can be proven that they do? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/16 "2005-05-20T21:20:35Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Can you provide a cite for the 100 other nations with troops there? Or are you saying that since it is possible to imagine that they exhist then it can be proven that they do? Oops, on preview, Never mind. Sorry Lib. Thought you were saying something you weren’t. I should have known better. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/17 "2005-05-20T21:26:51Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This kind of moron response is exactly the reason I put this in the pit instead of GD. So **Ex(low)Calibre**, you think anyone who doesn’t share your vision hates America? Fuck you and the pig you rode in on! I love America apparently more than you do, because I respect the right of other Americans to disagree with me, even those like you who would not afford me the same right. I do not, as you do, suggest they are traitors or America haters if they differ from me. Or did you miss the whole “freedom of speech” thing in civics class? :rolleyes: :: gapes :: ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/18 "2005-05-20T21:29:53Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This kind of moron response is exactly the reason I put this in the pit instead of GD. So **Ex(low)Calibre**, you think anyone who doesn’t share your vision hates America? Fuck you and the pig you rode in on! I love America apparently more than you do, because I respect the right of other Americans to disagree with me, even those like you who would not afford me the same right. I do not, as you do, suggest they are traitors or America haters if they differ from me. Or did you miss the whole “freedom of speech” thing in civics class? :rolleyes: :: so shocked that he accidentally hits enter and has to restart the post :: Uh, whoosh . . . man, did you at least look at the second paragraph before you replied? Cuz, uh, you _really_ missed my meaning. And on rereading, I’m still pretty sure the sarcasm was clear. I mean, “Why do you hate America?” is actually kind of an old joke by now. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/19 "2005-05-20T21:30:31Z")
To the OP: great title. Funny and sad at the same time. Not to worry though; any minute now a steemed member from the Create Their Own Reality Crowd – was recently talking to a few in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=316833) – will come in to set you straight. Everything’s fine, going according to “plan” (don’t ask!) and all of us “fringe lefties” (roughly 90% of humanity) who opposed and oppose this war, will be proven wrong. Faith-based Politics, brought to you courtesy of the 69nth Bendover Bushbot Brigade, whose fighting motto is: “you provide your own lube!” PS-The “I told you so” seems of little comfort at present time, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764/20 "2005-05-20T21:34:17Z")
Most of the ‘unrest’ in Iraq is because our troops are there. Remove them, and things will get better for the citizens. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/from-shock-and-awe-to-aw-shit/304764.md?page=2)